January 27th #code4lib planning meeting
(10:12:04 AM) edsu: ok, so thanks for showing up, i guess there's only a few weeks till this thing goes down
(10:12:41 AM) edsu: the preconf as proposed can be found here: http://wiki.code4lib.org/index.php/LinkedData
(10:13:22 AM) edsu: i basically cut n' pasted from tomheath's iswc tutorial to see if it would get through
(10:13:40 AM) edsu: and last i heard there were 50 or so people signed up
(10:13:56 AM) rsinger: edsu: so i guess it worked :)
(10:14:27 AM) edsu: rsinger: yeah, heheh i think this whole thing was your and mike's idea originally :)
(10:15:15 AM) mjgiarlo: edsu: this is what you cribbed from? http://events.linkeddata.org/iswc2008tutorial/
(10:15:42 AM) rsinger: so what's our plan?
(10:15:44 AM) edsu: yes indeedy, i just added a link to some linked-data presentations at the end of the wiki page
(10:16:19 AM) edsu: well maybe we can all just take a second to review the Program Outline and see if it makes rough sense
(10:16:44 AM) edsu: http://wiki.code4lib.org/index.php/LinkedData#Program_Outline
(10:17:06 AM) edsu: also, if you have a demo idea, or don't agree with one I put in (just for brainstorming) plz change the doc
(10:17:09 AM) charper: First thought is that it's billed as two different pre-confs, w/ diff registration counts.
(10:17:16 AM) charper: Do we need a clearer division there?
(10:17:59 AM) rsinger: like morning == intro/'lectures', afternoon == 'breakouts'?
(10:18:11 AM) ***edsu looks at http://code4lib.org/node/266
(10:18:28 AM) rsinger: the program seems a little ambitious, at the moment
(10:18:35 AM) edsu: rsinger: agreed
(10:19:00 AM) edsu: yeah it seems to be billed as instruction in the AM, and collaboration in the PM
(10:19:05 AM) mjgiarlo: Insofar as possible, and this is highly general, but I would like to avoid talking about the Semantic Web, RDF, and the like. The more we can focus on the practical, the better. RDF seems somewhat inevitable but to some extent we can treat it as Yet Another Format?
(10:19:16 AM) lbjay: I think the outline looks pretty good but is light on the Practical Tasks
(10:19:42 AM) charper: Maybe we lead off the afternoon bits by working with folks on installs?
(10:19:46 AM) rsinger: meh, i think RDF should stay -- i would cut SPARQL
(10:19:50 AM) charper: Jena other triple store stuff.
(10:19:55 AM) lbjay: for instance, i think each item under "Publishing Linked Data on the Web" should have a Learn By Doing aspect
(10:20:54 AM) brocadedarkness: i agree, "learn by doing", focus on the easy and fun parts and try to actually get people to publish something
(10:20:54 AM) lbjay: but that could be left to the breakout sessions
(10:20:58 AM) mjgiarlo: edsu and I (and maybe others on IRC) talked about encouraging folks to bring a dataset or have some data in mind to try to model via linked data. and those who don't, well, can do FOAFs?
(10:21:16 AM) charper: Bringing data is good.
(10:21:21 AM) lbjay: that way folks could segregate based on language preference
(10:21:21 AM) brocadedarkness: sounds good
(10:21:27 AM) iand: rsinger: I agree, sparql could be cut
(10:21:29 AM) charper: But if not, even without foaf stuff, why not show people how to pull data.
(10:21:39 AM) charper: See - that's where I thought sparql=good...
(10:21:52 AM) rsinger: i just think sparql is a day to itself
(10:21:52 AM) charper: Need a data set - run some queries against dbpedia...
(10:22:04 AM) iand: I think the focus should be on publishing
(10:22:17 AM) iand: otherwise the day is going to be too crammed
(10:22:19 AM) mjgiarlo: rsinger: I think it sort of has to stay, but I wouldn't want to say much more than "hey, RDF is this model that has these things called triples that neatly map to natural language subject, predicate, object." Fair? Too simple?
(10:22:25 AM) rsinger: a mention of sparql, maybe an example
(10:22:48 AM) lbjay: i was thinking more "here's how to create a sparql endpoint" vs. a full sparql tutorial
(10:22:54 AM) iand: mjgiarlo: probably slightly too simple, but I wouldn't go into a huge amount of depth
(10:23:03 AM) edsu: lbjay: you could definitely imagine that as a breakout session in the afternoon
(10:24:01 AM) edsu: iand: how could we focus more on the publishing side?
(10:24:46 AM) edsu: mjgiarlo: i also am a bit concerned that simply explaining what rdf is could take a while for some
(10:24:49 AM) iand: edsu: I think it mostly is, just that introducing sparql beyond "here it is, this is what it does" could take a long time
(10:24:50 AM) mmmmmrob: edsu: maybe a session on modelling data, looking at ontologies?
(10:24:54 AM) dchud: here's a thing that would've made the solr preconf better - if somebody had a pre-packaged instance they could share around
(10:25:35 AM) rsinger: if only there were some accessible triple store in the cloud...
(10:25:38 AM) dchud: some 5-50Mb of data sitting next to a basic server so anybody there could have something running locally to poke at
(10:25:41 AM) rsinger: if only...
(10:25:46 AM) dchud: and we should assume the network will fail us
(10:25:49 AM) janusman: dchud: instance for what application?
(10:25:51 AM) rsinger: :)
(10:26:03 AM) iand: edsu: I did an intro to rdf as part of a linked data presentation tom heath and I gave to the guardian newspaper... took about 10 minutes to a mixed tech/non-tech audience
(10:26:09 AM) janusman: dchud: you mean besides example/ ? =)
(10:26:14 AM) mjgiarlo: the eight-hundred pound platform in the room.
(10:26:21 AM) dchud: janusman: doesn't matter. some basic "take this sqlite file and run a web server serving the data in linked style" in a little bit of code
(10:26:34 AM) edsu: iand: that sounds better than trying to wade through cereal tom's slides
(10:26:45 AM) dchud: janusman: sorry, what example do you mean?
(10:26:54 AM) edsu: iand: no offense to those slides, they are great, but the iswc audience won't be the same i don't think
(10:26:57 AM) rsinger: i feel like an intro to rdf wouldn't be bad
(10:27:01 AM) janusman: dchud: oh just the example/ directory packaged with solr =)
(10:27:06 AM) mjgiarlo: 10 minutes sounds like the sweet spot to me
(10:27:17 AM) rsinger: iand's intro to rdf presentation was the 'aha' moment for me
(10:27:25 AM) iand: rsinger: what about a busy developer's intro to rdf... in 10 mins
(10:27:33 AM) iand: I'm happy to do that
(10:27:44 AM) dchud: janusman: yeah something like that would be good, but nobody had that pre-packaged for people there that day, iirc
(10:27:45 AM) mmmmmrob: that helped me
(10:27:55 AM) janusman: I don't quite get the "linked data" rush. I perhaps need some evangelism =)
(10:28:21 AM) dchud: erikhatcher had prepped some data, but only a few people had downloaded it before the event, so when the net went wonky, many were stuck without it
(10:28:27 AM) janusman: dchud: ah =)
(10:28:29 AM) edsu: janusman: it's not a rush it's been taking 8 years so far :)
(10:28:33 AM) rsinger: let me add that the 'aha' moment was pre-talis :)
(10:28:41 AM) iand: heh,
(10:29:26 AM) ***mmmmmrob arrived late - is there a draft agenda for the day anywhere?
(10:29:28 AM) lbjay: +1 on the pre-packaged instance idea
(10:29:35 AM) lbjay: mmmmmrob: http://wiki.code4lib.org/index.php/LinkedData
(10:29:39 AM) mjgiarlo: rsinger: didn't you already earn your pay today with your "if only" comment, shillboy?
(10:29:45 AM) mmmmmrob: lbjay++
(10:29:48 AM) ***edsu is axing the program outline
(10:30:07 AM) edsu: iand: does your intro to RDF cover linked-data-ness?
(10:30:21 AM) mmmmmrob: edsu: that lcsh.info demo will be quick...
(10:30:30 AM) edsu: mmmmmrob++
(10:30:49 AM) rsinger: so i'm not sure how the prepackaged demo would work
(10:31:03 AM) iand: edsu: I'll makes sure it does... current one needs a bit of updating
(10:31:08 AM) rsinger: BenO wrote recently about the travails of getting a triple store running locally
(10:31:16 AM) dchud: rsinger: a little data. a little code. "take this, copy it, and run it."
(10:31:18 AM) edsu: /reload http://wiki.code4lib.org/index.php/LinkedData#Program_Outline
(10:31:25 AM) jtgorman: I'm not fully paying attention, but if there's desire to show how someone can take a dataset and make it "linked" you might want to look into that dataset of circulation information that was released a while ago. Just started listening to a Talis podcast that had a little more info this morning
(10:31:41 AM) edsu: jtgorman: +1 to that
(10:31:52 AM) ***jtgorman goes back to the day job
(10:32:04 AM) mmmmmrob: jtgorman: dave patten at huddersfield
(10:32:07 AM) janusman: so... let's say I have a Solr search inside a Library Catalog. Should I then code RDF into the facets for "authors" so that something can understand a search for "bananas" has to do with a certain author...? or what would be a good example of linked data and Solr?
(10:32:36 AM) edsu: mmmmmrob: yeah, he released the data then this guy patrick tried to convert it to linked-data
(10:32:42 AM) janusman: or just that the author facet is indeed a "person" who can then be looked up, etc?
(10:32:49 AM) edsu: mmmmmrob: i think he may be going to code4lib now that i think of it
(10:32:53 AM) iand: I think some practical examples of publishing library-oriented data as linked data need to be on the agenda
(10:33:03 AM) charper: I'm still stuck on whether the focus should be entirely publishing.
(10:33:03 AM) anarchivist: iand: agreed
(10:33:06 AM) mmmmmrob: if only...
(10:33:07 AM) rsinger: agreed
(10:33:22 AM) dchud: iand: agree
(10:33:24 AM) charper: Publishing makes sense, but it doesn't get at *why*
(10:33:33 AM) rsinger: charper: well, publishing and consuming what's published, right?
(10:33:34 AM) charper: Don't we want to be talking about using this stuff?
(10:33:46 AM) charper: rsinger: exactly my point
(10:33:50 AM) dchud: charper: agree. i'd be up for a brainstorm session on practical apps and some hack-fun
(10:34:01 AM) ***janusman also would like to know *why* and maybe he'll get excited
(10:34:09 AM) rsinger: charper: but you don't need sparql for that, do you?
(10:34:29 AM) charper: rsinger: no you don't, but it helps, right?
(10:34:37 AM) lbjay: janusman: we're trying to hash out an agenda for a preconf. we are beyond the why at this point
(10:34:57 AM) janusman: lbjay: Ok, will ask the intertoobz then ;)
(10:34:58 AM) charper: example being the stuff Martin M did, with querying his author file against dbpedia's sparql endpoint.
(10:35:01 AM) rsinger: charper: right, but do you have a way of adding it in, say, 30 minutes?
(10:35:01 AM) charper: Creating links.
(10:35:27 AM) charper: rsinger: true. Probably too ambitious.
(10:35:27 AM) lbjay: not that the preconf shouldn't include some "why?" aspects
(10:35:36 AM) edsu: it definitely should imho
(10:35:42 AM) rsinger: me too
(10:36:54 AM) lbjay: wherefore art thou, RDF?
(10:36:57 AM) edsu: pkeane: hey :)
(10:37:06 AM) pkeane: greetings
(10:37:30 AM) edsu: pkeane: you aren't going to code4lib in providence by any chance are you?
(10:37:32 AM) mjgiarlo: janusman: If you google around for "library sweden linked data", you can see how linked data can work in the OPAC.
(10:37:44 AM) rsinger: charper: right, i mean, i think it makes sense for martin m to show off libris and explain that
(10:37:54 AM) pkeane: edsu: unfortunately not (wish I was)
(10:37:59 AM) janusman: mjgiarlo: thanks!
(10:38:05 AM) edsu: yes, just added libris.kb.se to list of possible demos
(10:38:27 AM) edsu: jphipps: i'd also like to hear more about the registry and vocabulary development (RDA, etc)
(10:38:59 AM) mjgiarlo: So re: the program, we ought to have a section on what linked data is and what its value is directly before or after iand's intro to RDF?
(10:39:03 AM) ***iand on phone
(10:39:18 AM) jphipps: can do, but maybe charper should talk about RDA
(10:39:31 AM) mmmmmrob: RDFa ?
(10:39:36 AM) edsu: so do you all think the AM could be: intro to rdf/linked data (iand) followed by various demos/presentations to get people seeig various applications?
(10:39:58 AM) mjgiarlo: +1 more or less
(10:40:00 AM) rsinger: charper: but without the critical mass of published data, it's all moot anyway, right?
(10:40:04 AM) jphipps: edsu: yes
(10:40:17 AM) edsu: then in the afternoon people could aggregate around the projects/demos that interested them?
(10:40:31 AM) edsu: also leave some space for other people in the audience who might want to present in the AM?
(10:40:31 AM) rsinger: this sounds like a good plan to me
(10:40:39 AM) charper: rsinger: yes, it all does become moot - though there's a critical mass forming outside of libs.
(10:40:40 AM) edsu: unconference style?
(10:40:51 AM) mjgiarlo: edsu: yeah, and some of us can be floaters, helping folks who want to publish FOAF, etc.
(10:40:54 AM) lbjay: i'm skeptical that's enough tutorial
(10:41:00 AM) charper: jphipps: I'd be happy to talk a bit about the RDA work itself, though your just as qualified as me.
(10:41:06 AM) edsu: lbjay: yes, me too
(10:41:28 AM) jtgorman: one of my biggest regrets about missing the conference will be missing the chance to do this linked-data thing :(
(10:41:46 AM) ***jtgorman will be watching blog posts about it closely
(10:41:51 AM) lbjay: edsu: maybe not enough for folks to be capable of breaking out independently
(10:42:04 AM) rsinger: plus, i think it's imperative to explictly lay out some ideas of what and how LOD in libraries should look like
(10:42:09 AM) mjgiarlo: jtgorman: and I'm sure we'll have documentation, or maybe audio or video if that happens.
(10:42:14 AM) edsu: maybe we could follow up iand's talk with a practical exercise of creating a foaf file?
(10:42:34 AM) edsu: or maybe using bibont to describe a book/article?
(10:42:36 AM) rsinger: i'm afraid FOAF isn't going give them the 'aha'
(10:42:42 AM) rsinger: edsu: that might be better
(10:42:56 AM) edsu: to get people engaged with what makes it different than say just using mods or something?
(10:43:04 AM) dchud: the macro view of linked data's linkedness and HTTP issues interests me more than the micro issues of RDF and some RDF format examples
(10:43:08 AM) lbjay: i'd like to see an exercise on how to discover the vocablularies to define whatever dataset they're interested in
(10:43:34 AM) mjgiarlo: edsu: also, the stuff in your "follow your nose" post could be aha-inducing. it's a powerful metaphor.
(10:43:43 AM) lbjay: here's my data. how do i find some vocabularies and when do a need to define my own terms
(10:43:52 AM) lbjay: s/a/I/
(10:43:53 AM) charper: lbjay: that gets back to mmmmmrob's earlier point about data-modeling, too.
(10:43:55 AM) edsu: lbjay: nice, just added that under demos
(10:44:00 AM) rsinger: lbjay: and what are the ramifications of either?
(10:44:11 AM) lbjay: rsinger: i'd like to know that myself
(10:44:22 AM) rsinger: me too
(10:44:29 AM) edsu: i think it also would gell nicely with jphipps talking about registries, and maybe iand again talking about openvocab
(10:44:53 AM) edsu: lbjay: so this would get back to encouraging people to bring some data
(10:45:11 AM) charper: edsu: a good segue to the problem that there often isn't a vocab out there.
(10:45:21 AM) rsinger: dchud: i agree -- we need to keep the eye on the prize of 'LOD'
(10:45:40 AM) iand: I was thinking a bit of practical examples: describe a book, describe an article, describe a journal, describe a person, describe a library location
(10:46:38 AM) rsinger: describe a map
(10:46:54 AM) iand: edsu: I am happy to talk about open vocab, I also have paget which is an OSS PHP framework for publishing linked data - but it's quite alpha
(10:47:47 AM) lbjay: is there a simple linked data app that would run under something like google app engine?
(10:48:05 AM) iand: lbjay: I'm not aware of one
(10:48:17 AM) rsinger: dchud: the only advantage that i see focusing on rdf brings to the table is that shakes things up from a document-centric POV to a resource-centric POV
(10:48:27 AM) lbjay: something that folks could easily install locally. this is getting back to the pre-packaged examples idea
(10:48:35 AM) iand: rsinger: is it worth showing xulu?
(10:48:53 AM) iand: rsinger: it demonstrates the resource-centric nature of linked data pretty well
(10:49:04 AM) edsu: dchud: would you be interested in talking about http/html use in the am for potential breakout in the afternoon?
(10:49:22 AM) rsinger: iand: yeah, possibly. i guess it depends on whether or not robotrobot has completely broken it by then
(10:49:30 AM) mjgiarlo: I added a couple of the bullet points from cerealtom's program outline to the tutorial section of ours just to flesh things out.
(10:50:01 AM) edsu: so what would go into a pre-packaged example?
(10:50:11 AM) edsu: a little webserver serving up linked data?
(10:50:20 AM) lbjay: edsu: that is the half-baked idea
(10:50:32 AM) edsu: i kind of like the idea of using rdfa
(10:50:38 AM) edsu: for the pre-packaged part
(10:50:47 AM) rsinger: it'd be easier to distribute
(10:51:02 AM) mjgiarlo: edsu: is there a data set like lcsh but, uh, less political and could be used for the aha demo? lcsh.info was basically perfect for this and you've already built some python utils.
(10:51:25 AM) edsu: mjgiarlo: i could easily run lcsh.info off my laptop
(10:51:38 AM) iand: dare I mention that talis platform is basically pre-packaged linked data? to achieved balance in the universe I'll also mention that virtuoso can be installed on ec2
(10:51:38 AM) lbjay: the thesaurus thing... someone posted to lod-public recently
(10:51:50 AM) lbjay: t4gm.info
(10:52:02 AM) edsu: lbjay: that's what i was going to say
(10:52:13 AM) rsinger: iand: dchud raised a good point that network connectivity isn't a given
(10:52:42 AM) iand: rsinger: ok, that's important
(10:52:55 AM) mjgiarlo: edsu: yeah, I just wouldn't want any shit to come your way should the Powers That Be at LC get wind.
(10:53:51 AM) edsu: i don't even understand what a pre-packaged demo would do
(10:54:04 AM) rsinger: however, we could always have virtuoso (or something - YARS, Sesame) on a local, ad-hoc network
(10:54:14 AM) rsinger: me neither, really
(10:54:39 AM) rsinger: i feel the prepackaged demo is a little too prescriptive
(10:54:46 AM) lbjay: pre-packaged sandbox
(10:55:20 AM) iand: back on the practical examples, I'd like to take some pre-existing data and show how you can convert it to RDF for publication as LD
(10:55:21 AM) rsinger: esp. since it's feasible that all some people need to 'publish linked data' is xslt
(10:55:53 AM) iand: rsinger: true, the main point is understanding what vocabularies to use and how to model the data
(10:56:26 AM) ***rsinger nods.
(10:57:00 AM) charper: iand: does your gentle intro get into the modeling questions?
(10:57:06 AM) edsu: iand, rsinger that's the important point i think
(10:57:24 AM) ***edsu adds iand's practical example
(10:57:49 AM) iand: charper: no, it's just background to help understand how it all works
(10:58:02 AM) rsinger: i think it's important to mention the various ways that LOD can be achieved
(10:58:12 AM) edsu: iand: do you see that example of working through a data set as something we'd do in the AM?
(10:58:29 AM) lbjay: rsinger: as in RDFa, conneg, etc?
(10:58:36 AM) iand: on rsinger's point it'll be good tosay that you don't need to convert everything to a triple store, so long as you can template your output to RDF
(10:58:42 AM) rsinger: lbjay: yeah, exactly
(10:58:50 AM) rsinger: lbjay: the pragmatic approach to publishing
(10:59:06 AM) iand: edsu: I think it'll really help connect people to the concepts using data they are already familiar with
(10:59:09 AM) rsinger: lbjay: the, we can't all run a triplestore easily, approach
(10:59:13 AM) ***lbjay agrees
(10:59:45 AM) iand: edsu: i.e. assign URIs to important resources like people, places, things, events
(10:59:55 AM) charper: Other level of that is the various levels of utility to the LOD concept.
(11:00:10 AM) mjgiarlo: jbrinley: you have exhausted my java/jvm knowledge, sadly.
(11:00:20 AM) charper: Difference between what iand just said vs all the depth and specificity of things like the rda work and bibont and the like.
(11:00:29 AM) charper: diff levels of modeling, if you will.
(11:00:36 AM) janusman: LOD = Level of Detail?
(11:00:45 AM) mjgiarlo: Linking Open Data
(11:00:54 AM) rsinger: charper: and the advantage to just having URIs
(11:00:58 AM) mjgiarlo: AKA Linked Data On the Web
(11:01:10 AM) rsinger: charper: if that's all you can reasonably provide
(11:01:12 AM) lbjay: Lords Of [the] Dance
(11:01:28 AM) charper: LOL - an accidental acro-homonym.
(11:01:31 AM) rsinger: lbjay--
(11:02:22 AM) charper: rsing: so my question is, is that the focus of this pre-conf?
(11:02:25 AM) edsu: would it be confusing/heresy do you think to introduce the idea of low-barrier linking via <link> like autodiscovery in html?
(11:02:48 AM) rsinger: edsu: no
(11:02:59 AM) charper: gets back to dchud's point about avoiding the RDF bits altogether, but then you lose the resource-centric rather than record-centric nature of this space.
(11:03:13 AM) iand: edsu: heresy yes, but not confusing :)
(11:03:32 AM) rsinger: charper: i don't think i can answer that -- personally, i think the library world is at the 'basic introduction' stage
(11:03:39 AM) edsu: iand: :)
(11:03:49 AM) rsinger: charper: and i think this helps pave the path for RDA
(11:04:19 AM) rsinger: (which, obv. is not a decision that the technologists will have to make)
(11:05:05 AM) lbjay: edsu: +1 on low-barrier <link>-ing
(11:05:30 AM) rsinger: charper: but i think we're not even at the Kool-Aid stage, I don't think libraries even are aware there's a grocery store that stocks Kool-Aid
(11:05:41 AM) edsu: i'm worried if the bar gets set that low people won't make the effort to understand what rdf brings to the table
(11:06:01 AM) lbjay: edsu: that's what i read from rsinger's "all the various ways that LOD can be achieved"
(11:06:44 AM) charper: rsinger: I'm not entirely sure that's true. I get so many fewer blank stares when I talk about this stuff than a few years back.
(11:06:44 AM) rsinger: edsu: i think what rdf brings to the table either has to be self-evident, or the advantages need to be shown
(11:06:50 AM) edsu: rsinger: i'd love to see a brief history of the semweb, that ram the layer cake down people's throats
(11:07:00 AM) edsu: s/that ram/that doesn't ram/
(11:07:02 AM) charper: We had almost 200 people in a session on this stuff at ALA this weekend.
(11:07:03 AM) edsu: :)
(11:07:09 AM) pkeane: edsu: +1 would like to see <link> at least considered part of LOD
(11:07:13 AM) charper: edsu+-
(11:07:16 AM) edsu: charper: how did that go?
(11:07:23 AM) charper: Went really well.
(11:07:39 AM) charper: Got a little weird and ExLibris-y at the end, but that was to be expected...
(11:07:51 AM) rsinger: charper: but this was more from a cataloger's perspective than a technologist, though, right?
(11:07:52 AM) edsu: charper: because of an exlibris product?
(11:08:07 AM) lbjay: charper: was K Harnish in attendance?
(11:08:09 AM) charper: rsinger: yes, it was more cataloger based - that's very true.
(11:08:18 AM) charper: edsu: yes because of product
(11:08:20 AM) rsinger: charper: i think that's a much easier leap for them
(11:08:22 AM) dchud: charper: why do you need RDF to talk resource-centric? we're talking about linking web resources, right? they can be anything.
(11:08:32 AM) charper: lbjay - k harnish was co-presenter on panel with myself and Diane Hillman.
(11:08:45 AM) charper: dchud: that's very true
(11:09:03 AM) iand: edsu: +1 for no layer cake
(11:09:22 AM) rsinger: dchud: but majority of 'web resources' are 'documents'
(11:09:24 AM) dchud: isn't <link> kind of the whole point? we could spend a whole day on that. hey, let's spend the whole day on that!
(11:09:32 AM) charper: Maybe I'm thinking too much from the cataloger perspective, but I find that many people get stuck focusing on the record.
(11:09:39 AM) edsu: dchud: would you want to talk about that in the AM?
(11:09:45 AM) rsinger: exactly
(11:09:53 AM) edsu: dchud: for possible breakout in the afternoon?
(11:09:55 AM) rsinger: charper: er, that was to you :)
(11:09:56 AM) mjgiarlo: +1 - no layer cake, focus on low-hanging fruit/link-header stuff
(11:09:57 AM) iand: charper: I agree, and that's what documents are in the web of data: records
(11:10:02 AM) dchud: edsu: just point me at a mic and wind me up
(11:10:16 AM) brocadedarkness: charper: i wish people would look less at the record. you are completely right
(11:10:21 AM) lbjay: charper: and by "people" you mean ex libris? ;)
(11:10:46 AM) edsu: dchud: :) (adding to possible demos section)
(11:10:50 AM) dchud: if you spend two hours introing rdf and modeling, i will tune out and use that time to work on some kind of demo
(11:10:50 AM) charper: lbjay: no, no - not at all. I mean catalogers, though our vendor's certainly play into that...
(11:10:55 AM) brocadedarkness: maybe stuff for a different conference/day, but both RDA and RDF/Linked data are to me less about records and more about links
(11:11:15 AM) iand: I don't think the session should be called linked data if it's not talking about URIs + RDF to link em together, otherwise it's diluting a well defined term
(11:11:48 AM) iand: call it something else like "publishing data"
(11:11:51 AM) dchud: iand: maybe i should have checked my dogma at the door.
(11:12:12 AM) charper: iand: to play devil's advocate, could we have the focus be linked data, but let dchud make the point that the URI's as identifiers are useful without the RDF too?
(11:12:15 AM) iand: dchud: huh, I'm the one being dogmatic about LOD :)
(11:12:42 AM) mjgiarlo: I am allergic to dogma dander.
(11:12:43 AM) dchud: iand: i thought i was :)
(11:12:46 AM) edsu: iand: tbl's 4 rules of linked data don't say anything about rdf do they?
(11:13:00 AM) rsinger: i think charper is on the money
(11:13:07 AM) charper: sorta makes the point that consistent identification of resources is valuable whether you've drank the kool-aid or not.
(11:13:22 AM) iand: charper: yes they are useful, and they are the most important part of linked data, but the meaning of the relationships between the resources is almost as important
(11:13:33 AM) edsu: i think what dchud's talking about is more REST than it is linked-data
(11:13:40 AM) dchud: we're going to have a roomful of people with interesting data or data interests. if we can get 4-10 data sets up and online and linky by the early afternoon, we can then spend a few hours hacking on what we can do with that
(11:13:46 AM) dchud: all formats are welcome
(11:13:49 AM) charper: iand: I couldn't agree more, but I drank the kool-aid a good 6-7 years ago. ;)
(11:13:58 AM) dchud: edsu: no i mean the linking bits
(11:14:15 AM) iand: dchud: they won't get on the LOD cloud unless they conform to the conventions of URIs + RDF + links to other data sets
(11:14:22 AM) pmurray: robcaSSon: ping
(11:14:43 AM) iand: not that getting on the cloud diagram is the only possiblt outcome, but it looks great for the community
(11:14:49 AM) dchud: iand: i haven't drank enough punch to see yet why that would concern anybody :)
(11:15:04 AM) dchud: i'd like to walk away from this day-long session to understand why it might
(11:15:08 AM) edsu: i think it's important to build a community
(11:15:11 AM) dchud: i mean, understanding more about why it might
(11:15:12 AM) edsu: of people doing roughly the same thing
(11:15:22 AM) rsinger: i agree
(11:15:40 AM) edsu: but pretending like there isn't divergence of opinion isn't going to do anyone any favors
(11:15:54 AM) edsu: although it could be confusing :)
(11:16:06 AM) charper: iand: but could that come from 2 diff places? Once you've got the URI's, a 2nd-party can use those in RDF and get on the cloud.
(11:16:34 AM) iand: edsu: you're right about timbl's 4 rules, but in the sentence before them he says use RDF for data http://www.w3.org/DesignIssues/LinkedData.html
(11:16:40 AM) ***iand in pedant mode
(11:16:42 AM) charper: edsu: Show how the divergence of opinion is a good thing. dchud mints some uris, I can then do stuff with that whether or not he cares about the cloud.
(11:16:50 AM) rsinger: again, i think the convincing argument has to be made by either side
(11:17:04 AM) iand: charper: yes, publishing linkable identifiers is the most important
(11:17:05 AM) jphipps: it's more important to sow understanding than confusion
(11:17:30 AM) mjgiarlo: To get away from dogma for the moment (citing my previous allergy), at the very least, we ought to be able to answer: 1) Hey, what's this linked-data thing? 2) Well hey, that's awesome, but how do I take this pile of data and make it like the swedish library or lcsh.info site?
(11:17:34 AM) iand: rsinger: is the day going to be a rehash of old arguments or is it going to be a linked data day?
(11:17:43 AM) edsu: jphipps: yeah, this is true
(11:18:20 AM) jphipps: if we can't agree on the nature of _effective_ LOD, then no attendee will leave understanding what we're talking about or why it's important
(11:18:23 AM) rsinger: iand: to me, i would focus entirely on rdf
(11:18:30 AM) dchud: mjgiarlo: agree, and add 3) oh cool, and here's what i can do with it
(11:18:31 AM) charper: Maybe dogma and re-hashing old arguments could be a breakout session. :)
(11:18:50 AM) rsinger: but i guess my point is that if there's an 'aha' moment that needs to be had, let's not assume it's been there before they get in the room
(11:18:51 AM) dchud: heh maybe i'll make a dogma classification system
(11:19:28 AM) lbjay: mjgiarlo: exactly, and #2 is why i thought a pre-packaged sandbox would be useful.
(11:19:39 AM) mjgiarlo: rsinger++ # aha-ifying is kind of key to the AM session
(11:19:41 AM) lbjay: mjgiarlo: not that i've figured out what that would be yet
(11:20:05 AM) iand: do c4lib attendees need to be convinced of importance of identifiers? I hope not. but maybe they need to be convinced of utility of identifiers that can be put in a web browser and used to retrieve more info about the identified thing
(11:20:18 AM) rsinger: lbjay: isn't dbpedia kind of the 'prepackaged' sandbox?
(11:20:34 AM) lbjay: rsinger: i guess it could be
(11:20:53 AM) mjgiarlo: iand: it's hard to say in advance. the dynamic of the conf has shifted a bit, IMO. I mean, we have an OLE project update this year.
(11:21:00 AM) rsinger: i guess we need to throw the 'network connectivity optional' thing out the window because we're talking about data DATA ON THE WEB
(11:21:08 AM) ***mjgiarlo implies a "for fuck's sake"
(11:21:15 AM) rsinger: maybe even data Data DAta DATA on the web
(11:21:21 AM) edsu: rsinger: :) yea
(11:22:13 AM) rsinger: well, the OLE people really need to be shown the kool-aid, imo
(11:22:18 AM) rsinger: hopefully some will be in attendance
(11:22:38 AM) iand: ok, sounds like we need a really strong piece right up front to give audience first chance of the aha moment... then each demo after gives a better chance of the aha
(11:22:44 AM) mjgiarlo: rsinger: don't disagree at all.
(11:22:46 AM) pmurray: rsinger: Sorry -- just glancing over. What kool-aid are we supposed to be drinking?
(11:22:53 AM) edsu: iand: i like the sound of that
(11:22:58 AM) rsinger: pmurray: linked data
(11:22:59 AM) iand: then in PM, after they've all stopped weeping, we set the world right
(11:23:07 AM) pmurray: ("we" == "I'm participating in the OLE Project")
(11:23:11 AM) ***mbklein is really looking forward to receiving the aha.
(11:23:15 AM) rsinger: Ian Davis, layer of hands
(11:23:37 AM) mjgiarlo: "He dropped a platform on my head and I felt ALL BETTER!"
(11:23:38 AM) pmurray: rsinger: Not sure how that would be appropriate; OLE is not providing a user interface to the web
(11:23:56 AM) rsinger: pmurray: neither is linked data
(11:24:04 AM) dchud: gotta go, will check the wiki later
(11:24:09 AM) edsu: lets not get silly now
(11:24:13 AM) edsu: :)
(11:24:22 AM) iand: edsu: I could morph my rdf intro into a "why and what is linked data"
(11:24:26 AM) pmurray: rsinger: Okay. True. Let me rephrase.
(11:24:59 AM) pmurray: rsinger: OLE is about providing services. If the underlying services make use of linked data concepts, then all is well.
(11:25:08 AM) rsinger: pmurray: there we go
(11:25:09 AM) edsu: iand: i kinda liked the idea of just talking about rdf up front, and maybe I or someone else could do a linked data intro (the LOD cloud, etc)
(11:25:16 AM) pmurray: s/providing services/providing a framework for services/
(11:25:27 AM) edsu: iand: using your honed guardian talk i mean
(11:25:29 AM) rsinger: ...NOW THAT DCHUD HAS LEFT THE ROOM...
(11:25:34 AM) iand: edsu: cool
(11:25:38 AM) rsinger: let the rdf sweep over the agenda
(11:25:56 AM) edsu: i secretly suspect that people who are anti-rdf just don't understand it
(11:26:09 AM) edsu: which is a good enough reason i suppose
(11:26:11 AM) charper: edsu: we should serve kool-aid before lunch...
(11:26:32 AM) edsu: might work better if we all drop acid :)
(11:26:34 AM) rsinger: "Here is your juice box"
(11:26:47 AM) rsinger: "Poke straw through hole"
(11:26:48 AM) charper: I think the other bit of anti-rdf-ness is that it's XML serialization is possibly the ugliest thing in tech-land...
(11:26:53 AM) iand: edsu: I'm not anti quantum chromodynamics but...
(11:26:57 AM) mjgiarlo: "Is it me, or does this smell like rohypnol?"
(11:26:59 AM) rsinger: "Your data is now magically linked"
(11:27:03 AM) mjgiarlo: "No, no, that's RDF!"
(11:27:33 AM) edsu: iand: :)
(11:27:35 AM) iand: bring on the hypnotoad
(11:27:43 AM) rsinger: charper: but, remember, these people have to deal with MARCXML
(11:27:58 AM) anarchivist: acid++
(11:28:13 AM) edsu: ok, so please feel free to edit the wiki page if something is missing
(11:28:16 AM) iand: yeah I don't think awful serialisations should be offputting to the lib crowd
(11:28:23 AM) charper: rsinger: right, and I keep forgetting they aren't catalogers... My audience changes too much.
(11:28:23 AM) lbjay: mmmmmrob: are you coming to providence?
(11:28:32 AM) edsu: otherwise lets ruminate on this a bit more and connect up again in a few days, or early next week?
(11:28:38 AM) mjgiarlo: Think we ought to introduce the topic of linked data before launching into what is RDF, though. Even if it's just a quick intro.
(11:28:43 AM) rsinger: edsu: definitely
(11:28:49 AM) iand: mjgiarlo: yes I agree
(11:28:54 AM) rsinger: edsu++ # I think this is begin to make sense
(11:29:00 AM) rsinger: er, beginning
(11:29:09 AM) mjgiarlo: rsinger: you are begin not to sense make.
(11:29:12 AM) rsinger: edsu: what we hope to achieve, i mean
(11:29:20 AM) charper: edsu: thanks again for pulling all of this together.
(11:29:38 AM) charper: Great group of people to help push these concepts further into reality.
(11:29:45 AM) brocadedarkness: yes thanks a lot (even though i haven't really been paying much attention today... will do better next time)
(11:32:12 AM) rsinger: so, do we want a 'practical approaches to making your data more linked/linkable'?
(11:32:13 AM) lbjay: good lord, was that really 1.5 hours?
(11:32:50 AM) mmmmmrob: lbjay: nope, not coming this year
(11:33:29 AM) jphipps: edsu: thanks!
(11:33:35 AM) lbjay: mmmmmrob: too bad. i was thinking your word re: MARC -> RDF would be enlightening to some
(11:33:41 AM) lbjay: s/word/work/
(11:33:51 AM) rsinger: i.e. "so your data store is solr, you could approach it like this..."
(11:34:04 AM) mmmmmrob: lbjay: thanks - rsinger, iand and rjw all know about it
(11:34:21 AM) charper: rsinger: low-hanging fruit is good.
(11:34:34 AM) charper: Good example of what Martin's stuff does, too.
(11:34:41 AM) rsinger: yeah
(11:34:47 AM) charper: "You're data is in Aleph/Voyager - you could approach it..."
(11:34:55 AM) rsinger: exactly!
(11:34:59 AM) rsinger: dspace
(11:35:04 AM) mjgiarlo: whoever removed me from oai-ore on the wiki: thank you. :)
(11:35:11 AM) rsinger: omeka
(11:35:13 AM) charper: edsu: I think maybe registry/RDA should be split out into 2 topics?
(11:35:15 AM) rsinger: ,etc.
(11:35:25 AM) charper: rsinger: yep.
(11:35:26 AM) edsu: charper: can you split on the wiki?
(11:35:42 AM) ***mjgiarlo will be content to sit there and learn, really.
(11:35:43 AM) edsu: mjgiarlo: heheh, didn't want to put words in your mouth :)
(11:36:05 AM) rsinger: seems like registry and openvocab might be related?
(11:36:11 AM) charper: edsu: wiki's been split.
(11:36:52 AM) charper: Reason I suggest is that I'd like to discuss the path from low-hanging fruit to sky-pie...
(11:36:55 AM) dbs: miker_ will be there, he should have some ideas about LOD and Evergreen
(11:37:02 AM) edsu: charper++
(11:37:03 AM) mjgiarlo: charper: Is good.
(11:37:23 AM) rsinger: how about "create a foaf file and see why it's useful"?
(11:37:49 AM) charper: rsinger: foaf file for yourself, I'm assuming?
(11:38:16 AM) rsinger: charper: well, the agenda item is "create a foaf file"
(11:38:31 AM) mjgiarlo: foaf seems to be the canonical example. it's on the tbl page ref'ed earlier.
(11:38:33 AM) charper: rsinger: I ask because I think about Martin's use of foaf for giving info on the libraries in Sweden...
(11:38:51 AM) mjgiarlo: and qualifies as low-hanging
(11:38:55 AM) rsinger: charper: well, i would like to see the extension led there, yes
(11:39:10 AM) rsinger: mjgiarlo: right, but just like i don't need a pet store application...
(11:40:01 AM) charper: maybe that's the need for a sandbox.
(11:40:22 AM) charper: If we've got people creating foaf files and biblio descrips, do we want a bucket to toss them into?
(11:40:30 AM) charper: Provides something to play with during breakout sessions?
(11:42:41 AM) edsu: charper: great to see you in here btw :)
(11:42:58 AM) charper: edsu: thanks - I used to lurk here once in a while... I should more often. :)
(11:46:03 AM) ***mjgiarlo is still thinking of pet store applications
(11:46:22 AM) ***charper needs more coffee before noon meeting...
(11:54:22 AM) rsinger: heh, i think my point is being mistaken
(11:54:28 AM) rsinger: re: pet store
(11:54:50 AM) rsinger: my point is that it's generally not a simple leap for me from 'pet store' to 'application i actually want or need'
(11:58:13 AM) edsu: rsinger: i forgot to ask if you had something you were willing to talk about in the demo period for lod-preconf
(11:58:27 AM) rsinger: edsu: i am not sure, yet
(11:58:51 AM) rsinger: edsu: and i'm not sure it wouldn't just be better served with martin/anders
(11:59:25 AM) mjgiarlo: demos can be time-consuming anyhow.
(12:00:31 PM) mjgiarlo: I'd rather see three solid demos than seven rushed (or long) ones, in the interest of not inundating or confusing people.
(12:01:19 PM) lbjay: how many cooks does it take to bake a semweb sky-pie?
(12:01:19 PM) edsu: rsinger: i wonder if jangle fits in the discussion?
(12:01:44 PM) rsinger: not if we want to limit it to rdf or rdf/a
(12:02:10 PM) edsu: i'm kind of +0 about that limitation
(12:02:25 PM) ***rsinger nods.
(12:02:31 PM) edsu: i guess i think it would be great for "us" to have that discussion
(12:02:45 PM) rsinger: edsu: yeah, agree
(12:02:51 PM) edsu: but the danger is the attendees will scratch their chin and mutter wtf, and wander off to the oclc demo
(12:03:18 PM) rsinger: edsu: i think limiting scope on a clearly defined objective is a good thing
(12:03:27 PM) mjgiarlo: I think I'd be bored by debate.
(12:03:51 PM) edsu: mjgiarlo: yea
(12:04:12 PM) mjgiarlo: Tell me why I should care about linked data, and how to use it with my data, and I will be overjoyed. Assuming that is true of many, but, uh, yeah, "assuming."
(12:04:14 PM) rsinger: edsu: i mean, if jangle fits into the lod talk, so does unapi
(12:04:38 PM) edsu: jangle is a bit more web-like than unapi imho
(12:04:49 PM) edsu: from what i've seen anyhow
(12:04:57 PM) rsinger: mjgiarlo: that's exactly what i expect the crowd to be like
(12:05:19 PM) edsu: yeah, i guess they signed up because of what it said on the tutorial page
(12:05:24 PM) edsu: and that did say rdf and shit
(12:05:27 PM) rsinger: edsu: well, jangle is exactly what you were referring to when you mentioned 'what dchud wants sounds more like REST'
(12:05:44 PM) edsu: rsinger: aye
(12:05:51 PM) rsinger: since what dchud said sounded exactly like jangle
(12:06:04 PM) rsinger: plus there's a 20 minute talk on jangle the next day
(12:06:11 PM) rsinger: and i can propose a breakout session
(12:06:20 PM) edsu: rsinger: yes, i think this makes sense
(12:06:29 PM) rsinger: jangle's not hurting for exposure on that front
(12:06:32 PM) mjgiarlo: RDF is fine and all but I don't think we need to advocate RDF specifically, rather we should advocate linked data (which necessarily includes RDF in some form or another?).
(12:07:05 PM) mjgiarlo: I didn't word that well, but hopefully it made sense.
(12:07:12 PM) rsinger: i think this preconf should focus on using rdf
(12:07:30 PM) edsu: did you mean 'does not necessarily include' ?
(12:07:53 PM) edsu: the thing about rdf is that it has linkedness baked into it at a very low-level
(12:07:55 PM) mjgiarlo: rsinger: I guess what I mean is that we don't need to argue about the value of RDF, per se, but about the value of linked data.
(12:08:09 PM) rsinger: i don't think we need to argue about the value
(12:08:09 PM) edsu: i think things like html and atom etc have this linked-ness too tho
(12:08:10 PM) mjgiarlo: and carry RDF along with it where it makes sense.
(12:08:38 PM) rsinger: let's just assume that people saw that this was about linked data and rdf, like it says on the wiki, and take it from there
(12:08:50 PM) mjgiarlo: edsu: can you do linked data without any RDFisms? (genuine question, not a challenge.)
(12:09:19 PM) mjgiarlo: Yes yes.
(12:09:19 PM) edsu: mjgiarlo: depends on what you mean by linked-data i suppose
(12:09:27 PM) rsinger: well, i think you're just remaking rdf, but yeah
(12:09:45 PM) mjgiarlo: we ought to be clear and consistent on what we mean by linked data then :)
(12:10:36 PM) edsu: mjgiarlo: yeah, i mean it all comes down to the 4 guiding rules
(12:10:43 PM) edsu: mjgiarlo: for me
(12:10:43 PM) rsinger: i guess even the attempts to do so without rdf would require something like grddl to make it useful
(12:11:03 PM) mjgiarlo: 4_rules++
(12:11:12 PM) edsu: yes, grddl is pretty nice though
(12:11:19 PM) edsu: esp for xslt-heads
(12:11:42 PM) ***edsu shrugs
(12:12:08 PM) edsu: it may be kind of confusing, but being able to point at deployed linked data apps, and say this is what they did will help dispell confusion i think
(12:12:20 PM) edsu: that's when being about to point at the lod-cloud is important
(12:12:31 PM) edsu: it helps people understand i think
(12:13:01 PM) rsinger: edsu: i agree, but it's still turning whatever you've got (microformats, for example) into rdf
(12:13:02 PM) mjgiarlo: I see that point. My main concern is that we don't try to cram in too many demos.
(12:13:07 PM) rsinger: edsu: which means the end-result is still rdf
(12:13:39 PM) rsinger: although, i guess jangle meets timbl's 4 rules
(12:13:56 PM) edsu: rsinger: yes
(12:14:06 PM) rsinger: helps when the first two rules are really the same rule
(12:14:21 PM) edsu: mjgiarlo: even if people just talked for 10 mins?
(12:14:34 PM) edsu: mjgiarlo: to get people interested in a breakout session in the afternoon?
(12:15:14 PM) rsinger: i think it's important that the demos give context to the point at hand
(12:15:53 PM) rsinger: for instance, showing lcsh.info, and the underlying architecture doesn't prove the thesis terribly well
(12:16:32 PM) mjgiarlo: It's doable, as long as the pre-demo stuff is solid and provides aha-ification.
(12:16:49 PM) mjgiarlo: ... and as long as demo-ers don't get carried away. :)
(12:17:15 PM) edsu: yeah, we need to apply a realistic timetable to what we have
(12:17:24 PM) edsu: with breaks for coffee, etc
(12:17:25 PM) mjgiarlo: the first hour of the pre-conf is the most crucial.
(12:17:55 PM) edsu: i wonder if perhaps a general overview of linked data would be useful before diving into rdf
(12:17:59 PM) rsinger: yes
(12:18:03 PM) rsinger: edsu: definitely
(12:18:20 PM) rsinger: edsu: linked data, a couple of examples, THEN how to do it
(12:18:33 PM) edsu: i see someone added it already :)
(12:18:38 PM) mjgiarlo: I believe iand may have offered to do that?
(12:19:06 PM) edsu: yes, but he's going to do the busy_developer's_intro to rdf as well
(12:19:08 PM) mjgiarlo: I just added a couple bullets from cerealtom's doc is all
(12:19:18 PM) edsu: cool
(12:19:27 PM) mjgiarlo: I thought iand said he was going to massage his rdf piece into an intro to linked data?
(12:19:32 PM) mjgiarlo: I dunno, so hard to keep up.
(12:19:48 PM) edsu: the vocab discovery is in two places
(12:19:51 PM) edsu: lbjay's idea
(12:20:00 PM) edsu: mjgiarlo: he said he could yeah
(12:20:31 PM) edsu: i wonder if stefano would like to participate
(12:20:33 PM) lbjay: edsu: either works for me
(12:21:59 PM) mjgiarlo: lbjay: it'll depend on whether you see it more as a demo or as a topic, it seems
(12:24:14 PM) lbjay: mjgiarlo: yeah, just pondering that
(12:24:53 PM) edsu: the line between intro and demo is kind of blurry
(12:25:01 PM) lbjay: i see it as a "let's all work through these practical examples together" thing
(12:25:11 PM) edsu: lbjay: yea
(12:25:16 PM) edsu: lbjay: right after foaf i think
(12:25:35 PM) edsu: lbjay: or in place of foaf
(12:27:38 PM) lbjay: edsu: i'm not sure i understand the foaf part
(12:28:04 PM) edsu: it would amount to writing a foaf file for yourself
(12:28:22 PM) rsinger: right, i think there needs to be one more step
(12:28:22 PM) edsu: in turtle, or rdf/xml or something, or maybe even using one of the generators
(12:28:31 PM) rsinger: showing something cool with these new foafs
(12:28:46 PM) rsinger: otherwise it's like doing a worksheet in middle school
(12:29:31 PM) lbjay: would you be mine, could you be mine, won't you be my FOAF?
(12:29:33 PM) edsu: hmm yea
(12:29:58 PM) rsinger: "great, i wrote a pet store application"
(12:30:10 PM) rsinger: "now what the fuck do i do with all this marc data?"
(12:30:18 PM) edsu: i guess pointing at livejournal and identica wouldn't be enough?
(12:31:13 PM) rsinger: edsu: but what's the practical use of a foaf doc?
(12:33:00 PM) lbjay: rsinger: some kind of web of trust system?
(12:33:10 PM) edsu: rsinger: it's more an exercise yeah -- practically someone could discover a distributed social network, with http
(12:33:16 PM) rsinger: edsu: i think part of the challenge (and the payoff) is showing the benefits of making our data available in these ways
(12:33:53 PM) rsinger: and i think foaf is exactly the sort of thing that royt says, "well, great... now what do i do with this thing?"
(12:33:59 PM) rsinger: or dchud
(12:34:23 PM) rsinger: and i think that's a legitimate question
(12:34:52 PM) edsu: i guess being able to discover and maintain a distributed view of a social network isn't very useful?
(12:34:53 PM) rsinger: but, let's say we had a link to royt's foaf from his LJ column
(12:35:13 PM) rsinger: which then led to royt's other professional and creative output
(12:35:26 PM) mjgiarlo: edsu: if there was a way to -show- people how setting up a FOAF gets them that, I think rsinger and royt would be happy.
(12:35:38 PM) royt: pretty much
(12:36:45 PM) edsu: mjgiarlo: well someone setting up a foaf wouldn't see it, they'd only see it if they attempted to either manually or automatically follow the links
(12:36:46 PM) rsinger: edsu: does that make sense?
(12:36:55 PM) edsu: it does yeah
(12:37:02 PM) mjgiarlo: sort, uh, foaf network searcher + network visualizer sort of doodad.
(12:37:08 PM) edsu: why bother going through the effort of publishing data this way
(12:37:35 PM) rsinger: i think even just the simplest 'follow your nose' aspect
(12:37:40 PM) rsinger: staff directory
(12:37:56 PM) rsinger: or, in this case, attendee directory
(12:38:27 PM) rsinger: so the graph would show the intersections of foaf:made and foaf:project and all that
(12:38:58 PM) mjgiarlo: follow_your_nose++
(12:39:03 PM) edsu: mjgiarlo: so this isn't enough i take it: http://foaf-visualizer.org/?uri=http://lackoftalent.org/michael/foaf.rdf&hash=mjg
(12:39:30 PM) rsinger: right, but what's the context of foaf-visualizer?
(12:39:37 PM) mjgiarlo: edsu: if I could start there and follow my nose, maybe that'd be enough
(12:40:17 PM) rsinger: that's why i thought it might be interesting outcome to make a linked data app that represents the preconf
(12:41:48 PM) edsu: yeah, that's an interesting idea rsinger
(12:41:51 PM) rsinger: so the foafs become part of that
(12:42:08 PM) mjgiarlo: edsu: ah, neat, I like how your foaf links out to dbpedia
(12:43:14 PM) edsu: could use freebase now too i guess
(12:43:47 PM) edsu: i guess we could just tell everyone to create an identica account
(12:43:59 PM) edsu: and not bother with manually creating a foaf file
(12:44:13 PM) rsinger: well, we could leave it to their discretion
(12:44:48 PM) rsinger: personally, i'd rather my foaf be associated with dilettantes.code4lib.org than identi.ca
(12:44:51 PM) mjgiarlo: and they could always start with a template, like ldodds's foaf maker?
(12:45:43 PM) edsu: rsinger: you can have your cake and eat it too with owl:sameAs
(12:46:55 PM) edsu: anyhow
(12:47:15 PM) edsu: mjgiarlo: i think you are right about having 3 solid intro talks
(12:47:25 PM) edsu: and then opening things up to a bit more free form stuff
(12:48:27 PM) lbjay: well, if "solid" is a criteria that pushes me back to the free form part of the schedule
(12:48:58 PM) edsu: nah
(12:49:17 PM) lbjay: identi.ca needs a profile setting for an external foaf file
(12:49:51 PM) lbjay: edsu: i wasn't complaining
(12:50:27 PM) mjgiarlo: I think there'll be a good niche for vocabulary selection once the principles and value of LOD have been established. maybe folks will have seen (or started to tinker on their own) simple FOAFs and will be wondering "well, great, but I want to do something more sophisticated than look at mjgiarlo's ugly mug on foaf-visualizer. where do I get other predicates?"
(12:51:29 PM) lbjay: mjgiarlo: i agree. i think it's one of the more "fun" aspects of it too. but that might just be me
(12:51:57 PM) edsu: it is the fun part, kind of more along the lines of vocamp in spirit
(12:52:17 PM) edsu: i think the other library nerds will find it to be the fun part too
(12:53:15 PM) rsinger: yeah, that's why i was suggesting making the preconf into lod app
(12:53:23 PM) mjgiarlo: right, they may start to think "well, hey, maybe all this descriptive metadata stuff could be modeled in this way" (which would later be reinforced by jphipps' spiffy registry).
(12:53:36 PM) rsinger: so we have the individual talks, linked to who did them
February 6th #code4lib planning meeting
(10:05:52 AM) edsu: anyone here for the weekly linked-data thingameebob?
(10:06:15 AM) rsinger: i'm only here for the witty repartee
(10:06:23 AM) rsinger: and the donuts
(10:06:25 AM) lbjay: "lbjay... present"
(10:07:11 AM) ***mjgiarlo is here
(10:08:12 AM) edsu: mjgiarlo: you taping this again?
(10:08:36 AM) ***mjgiarlo clicks record
(10:09:32 AM) ***lbjay puts on his serious hat
(10:09:42 AM) edsu: don't do that now :)
(10:10:14 AM) edsu: first order of business (should've had an agenda i guess)
(10:10:49 AM) edsu: lbjay: you had an idea for possibly getting together pre-pre-conference to work through some of the logistics?
(10:11:18 AM) lbjay: edsu: yes
(10:11:39 AM) lbjay: edsu: assuming some of us make it to town on Sunday night
(10:11:56 AM) edsu: i will be
(10:12:05 AM) edsu: iand: are you here?
(10:12:20 AM) ***mjgiarlo votes for meeting over beer.
(10:12:21 AM) lbjay: i can make the drive down. only a little > 1hr
(10:12:23 AM) iand: is anybody really here?
(10:13:23 AM) rsinger: let me see when i get in on sunday
(10:14:11 AM) edsu: iand: you flying into US on the Sunday?
(10:14:42 AM) rsinger: i get to pvd at 6:15
(10:14:50 AM) iand: edsu: I am
(10:15:35 AM) iand: edsu: I think I land at 12:15pm local time
(10:15:55 AM) iand: so I'll be around in the evening
(10:16:08 AM) edsu: iand: way ahead of all of us i guess, so you'd be up for getting together in the evening to go over some of the details of the next day? ... cool
(10:16:59 AM) edsu: rsinger: you be ok too? i guess it would have to be later, maybe 8?
(10:17:02 AM) rsinger: i guess realistically this means i won't be available until ~8pm?
(10:17:11 AM) edsu: maybe over drinks? :)
(10:17:15 AM) rsinger: natch
(10:17:59 AM) iand: edsu: drinks would be a condition of my acceptance :)
(10:18:29 AM) mjgiarlo: Lords Of the Dance pre-conf planning meeting.
(10:19:40 AM) rsinger: so perhaps this morning we come up with a desired outcome and draft a rough schedule of the morning?
(10:20:18 AM) rsinger: i have already thrown my desired outcome in the ring
(10:20:36 AM) edsu: so how much time do you think we have to fill in the am?
(10:20:41 AM) edsu: it starts at 9?
(10:21:16 AM) lbjay: edsu: i'm not sure we've ever said what time it starts
(10:21:18 AM) mjgiarlo: Hopefully no earlier than 9.
(10:21:28 AM) lbjay: 9 seems reasonable
(10:22:00 AM) rsinger: so that gives 3-3.5 hours for education?
(10:22:16 AM) lbjay: rsinger: can you repeat your desired outcome?
(10:22:47 AM) edsu: so lets say 9-12 for the AM session?
(10:22:56 AM) rsinger: lbjay: i would like us to apply our newfound LOD abilities towards a LOD 'preconference proceedings' type site
(10:23:06 AM) edsu: 12:00-1:30 lunch?
(10:23:23 AM) edsu: 1:30-5:00 pm session?
(10:23:26 AM) lbjay: rsinger: righto. i remember now
(10:23:44 AM) mjgiarlo: edsu: is your foaf/app idea similar to rsinger's?
(10:23:51 AM) rsinger: app is perhaps a little more automated than i can reasonably expect
(10:23:54 AM) edsu: mjgiarlo: i guess? yeah?
(10:24:08 AM) edsu: i want to figure out how much time we need to fill in the morning first, if possible
(10:24:44 AM) edsu: like 9:00 - 10:30 &break; 10:45 - 12:00 ?
(10:25:03 AM) lbjay: should we update the wiki as we proceed here? or maybe etherpad?
(10:25:34 AM) lbjay: http://etherpad.com/Bzk4mctKuB
(10:26:16 AM) mjgiarlo: edsu: +1
(10:27:36 AM) rsinger: edsu: so, how long for each slot?
(10:27:50 AM) edsu: so i just made up these slots
(10:28:20 AM) lbjay: i can do 20-30 minutes
(10:28:31 AM) mjgiarlo: charper: will you be around on Sunday eve?
(10:28:38 AM) edsu: what i put down for charper linked-data & libraries really feeds into what the swedes have done
(10:28:45 AM) charper: mjgiarlo: planning to be, yeah.
(10:31:17 AM) rsinger: looks like the morning is pretty well filled up
(10:31:18 AM) edsu: charper: i wasn't sure what to put you down for, you've got the verbal gift, so i'd like to tap it yo
(10:31:49 AM) charper: edsu: always willing to blather about pretty much anything.
(10:32:56 AM) rsinger: we probably want something about openvocab.org, too
(10:33:12 AM) mjgiarlo: openvocab seems to tie in with what lbjay suggested.
(10:33:25 AM) rsinger: it seems like throwing lbjay's, jphipp's and iand on openvocab together would make sense
(10:33:35 AM) iand: I am happy to talk about openvocab
(10:34:25 AM) mjgiarlo: iand: were you planning on doing a general RDF intro or an RDF/LOD intro? I know both were mentioned last time.
(10:34:55 AM) rsinger: i thought edsu was going to do the LOD intro
(10:35:06 AM) iand: mjgiarlo: I suggested doing both, but ... what rsinger said
(10:35:14 AM) mjgiarlo: Just wanna make sure we don't have much duplication.
(10:35:32 AM) rsinger: iand: how long is your developer intro?
(10:35:36 AM) lbjay: if the am slots are each 30 we're going to run from 9-12:30
(10:35:36 AM) edsu: i was planning on giving an overview of the day, and a short (hopefully) humorous intro to the semweb/linkeddata effort
(10:35:39 AM) lbjay: approx
(10:35:54 AM) iand: rsinger: I wanted to keep it short...rdf is not that interestign
(10:36:04 AM) rsinger: iand: but relatively important
(10:36:13 AM) edsu: rsinger: right
(10:36:13 AM) lbjay: critical, even
(10:36:18 AM) iand: in 30 mins I could cover rdf and linked data
(10:36:26 AM) charper: not sure the rdf bits have to be too in depth.
(10:36:29 AM) rsinger: i am still not entirely sure about the PM breakouts -- but i'm getting ahead of myself
(10:36:32 AM) iand: charper: yeah me too
(10:36:37 AM) charper: They'll come out further in the other sessions...
(10:36:38 AM) mjgiarlo: edsu: do think a 10-15 minute overview of lcsh.info would be of interest? It seems to hit that sweet spot of "I have this data I want to LODify, how do I do it?"
(10:36:51 AM) edsu: charper: have you heard anders talk about libris before?
(10:36:58 AM) edsu: charper: i don't think martin is going to make it
(10:37:01 AM) charper: No, just Martin.
(10:37:08 AM) charper: edsu: I know, he mentioned that.
(10:37:09 AM) rsinger: i figure none of the 'demo' things need to be much more than 15 mins., do they?
(10:37:10 AM) charper: :(
(10:37:40 AM) edsu: mjgiarlo: i could do that, i've got a shiny new simplified version of lcsh.info i could demo
(10:37:50 AM) edsu: rsinger: yeah, 15 mins for demos
(10:37:52 AM) charper: jphipps might want a bit longer than 15 if he's talking about both registry and rda.
(10:38:03 AM) edsu: indeed
(10:38:32 AM) ***rsinger might not be off the hook anymore
(10:38:54 AM) lbjay: rsinger: do we have an idea of the vocabs to be used for our preconference app? will there be an opportunity to devise some custom terms?
(10:39:09 AM) lbjay: s/app/site/
(10:39:14 AM) rsinger: have we even agreed on that?
(10:39:54 AM) edsu: lbjay: this might be premature but i took a stab at layering some rdfa into http://code4lib.org/2009
(10:39:57 AM) rsinger: just because i like it doesn't mean it has merit :)
(10:40:07 AM) charper: This might give a starting point for vocabs... http://www.eswc2006.org/rdf/
(10:41:04 AM) rsinger: charper: this is *exactly* what i was thinking
(10:41:42 AM) charper: rsinger: kind of those European SW folks to come up with the start of an ontology for us, then...
(10:42:02 AM) mjgiarlo: check the etherpad, we're filling up the AM perfectly if current time estimates are realistic.
(10:42:02 AM) rsinger: it would be sort of cool if it's designed so that an enterprising hacker could extend it to the entire conference
(10:42:21 AM) charper: was just thinking the same thing.
(10:42:48 AM) rsinger: off the hook again!
(10:42:54 AM) rsinger: w00t
(10:43:12 AM) lbjay: so i guess one challenge will be to work that development into some kind of narrative throughout the sessions
(10:44:15 AM) edsu: curl "http://www.w3.org/2007/08/pyRdfa/extract?format=turtle&uri=http://code4lib.org/2009"
(10:44:18 AM) rsinger: lbjay: yeah, seems doable, right?
(10:44:22 AM) edsu: you can see what i layered in there already
(10:44:24 AM) lbjay: rsinger: ayup
(10:45:09 AM) edsu: there's the rdfa highlight tool as well
(10:46:09 AM) edsu: so you'll see: <http://code4lib.org/2009#conference> a swc:ConferenceEvent ; swc:isSuperEventOf <http://code4lib.org/node/266#preconferences> .
(10:46:15 AM) rsinger: sweet
(10:46:22 AM) rsinger: yeah
(10:46:25 AM) lbjay: yep
(10:46:50 AM) edsu: and you can then follow-your-nose to the preconf
(10:46:59 AM) edsu: curl "http://www.w3.org/2007/08/pyRdfa/extract?format=turtle&uri=http://code4lib.org/node/266#preconferences"
(10:47:57 AM) charper: edsu: do you think you can work this into your intro?
(10:48:06 AM) rsinger: hey, that works on my rdfa/foaf: curl "http://www.w3.org/2007/08/pyRdfa/extract?format=turtle&uri=http://dilettantes.code4lib.org/about-me/"
(10:48:14 AM) rsinger: (nothing else seems to)
(10:48:32 AM) rsinger: although obv. some of it is messed up
(10:49:14 AM) edsu: actually reload that last rdfa extract
(10:51:19 AM) edsu: charper: i could maybe work it into the intro yeah
(10:51:55 AM) charper: edsu: that could be good, provide the starting point to that narrative thread.
(10:52:01 AM) rsinger: so, how can we guide the intros/tutorials into this?
(10:52:18 AM) charper: Then even the hypotheticals / demos...
(10:52:30 AM) rsinger: iand: do you think an outcome of your into be that we all have the beginnings of a foaf?
(10:52:32 AM) edsu: i'm not sure why the rdfa distiller isn't distilling the assertions i see with rdfa highlighter, it should be picking <http://code4lib.org/node/288#linked-data-preconf> swc:hasAttendee <http://iandavis.com/id/me>
(10:52:35 AM) charper: Imagine if the talks descriptions had skos pointing to lcsh.info...
(10:52:52 AM) charper: Then those could generate reading lists based on presenters and / or topics...
(10:53:09 AM) iand: rsinger: wasn't planning that outcome, but I could change things to make it more possible
(10:53:26 AM) rsinger: iand: i'm just throwing out ideas, i guess
(10:53:32 AM) rsinger: dunno if they're good :)
(10:53:44 AM) iand: I can use that as an example
(10:54:00 AM) iand: and ask people to follow along
(10:54:07 AM) edsu: i guess i was wondering if we could use the book raffle as a carrot
(10:54:19 AM) edsu: to learning teh rdf
(10:54:24 AM) rsinger: edsu: yes, i still like that idea
(10:55:00 AM) edsu: so we have at least a few people with foaf files: lbjay, iand, mjgiarlo, myself
(10:55:06 AM) lbjay: i'm starting to think my slot is too soon
(10:55:44 AM) lbjay: should maybe come after the two examples: lcsh.info and libris
(10:55:58 AM) rsinger: edsu: i can have what i showed above working by then
(10:56:06 AM) edsu: and i was thinking over the morning, afternoon we could get people to either a) create a foaf file and put it up somewhere b) create an identi.ca/lj/other foaf serving account
(10:56:18 AM) rsinger: edsu: or do you want something a little less hacky?
(10:57:31 AM) rsinger: edsu: curl "http://www.w3.org/2007/08/pyRdfa/extract?format=turtle&uri=http://dilettantes.code4lib.org/about-me/"
(10:58:04 AM) iand: could use http://foafbuilder.qdos.com/
(10:58:13 AM) edsu: aye
(10:58:34 AM) edsu: and then they would basically contact one of us with a foaf file, and we would add them
(10:59:13 AM) rsinger: sure
(11:00:34 AM) edsu: and over the day i'd have a little app running crawling looking for people related to us, within a certain radius, that have an assertion like what i have currently in my foaf: <http://inkdroid.org/ehs> <http://data.semanticweb.org/ns/swc/ontology#attendeeAt> <http://code4lib.org/2009#conference> .
(11:00:44 AM) edsu: and reporting on new people that it has found?
(11:00:54 AM) edsu: who could be randomly picked from for the book raffle?
(11:01:04 AM) edsu: is that too involved?
(11:01:19 AM) edsu: i guess in the end it doesn't even matter, it would just be icing on the cake
(11:01:20 AM) rsinger: i don't think so
(11:01:23 AM) rsinger: yeah
(11:01:45 AM) rsinger: so, ok -- what do we want the "takeaway" to be?
(11:01:58 AM) rsinger: since i think that will help frame the afternoon
(11:02:29 AM) edsu: take away for the am sessions?
(11:02:40 AM) edsu: or for my crazy foaf-book-raffle idea?
(11:02:52 AM) edsu: was thinking we'd save the raffle to the end of the day
(11:03:01 AM) edsu: since it'll prolly take that long to get working :)
(11:03:28 AM) rsinger: no, i mean for the preconf as a whole
(11:04:01 AM) rsinger: right now the PM sort of looks like a free-for-all
(11:04:21 AM) edsu: i think what iand said last time, to get people to realize that they can start doing this stuff in their own applications, with their own data now, would be the ideal outcome
(11:04:36 AM) edsu: rsinger: &laugh;
(11:06:04 AM) rsinger: i think that's fine, but i think having pre-planned to work towards (in various technologies) would make it easier to do that
(11:06:04 AM) lbjay: i have no idea what the afternoon is about anymore
(11:06:05 AM) mjgiarlo: What I'd like the outcome to be is for all attendees to be able to answer the following: "What is linked data and what is its value? How can I LODify my piles of data?"
(11:06:27 AM) rsinger: i think LOD-ifying my piles of data is way too broad and ambitious
(11:07:03 AM) mjgiarlo: Even if they learn it by example, I think that's useful.
(11:07:05 AM) charper: rsinger: why?
(11:07:07 AM) edsu: if data means an existing application though
(11:07:25 AM) charper: I mean, it's too ambitious for an outcome, but as a takeaway?
(11:07:37 AM) ***jbrinley assumed the afternoon would be taking example piles of data and showing how they can be LODified
(11:08:08 AM) rsinger: my fear is that we have two axes, basically: kinds of data and technologies to work with
(11:08:09 AM) lbjay: jbrinley: right. using php, python, java, etc.
(11:08:12 AM) mjgiarlo: Oh, were we talking takeaways for the AM? if so, my bad. Then just my first question.
(11:08:14 AM) edsu: i would prefer to s/data/application/
(11:08:23 AM) rsinger: edsu: me too
(11:09:02 AM) rsinger: that we break up and, in our technology of choice, deliver a certain aspect of a LOD
(11:09:23 AM) rsinger: that we get together occasionally to figure out how to link to each other
(11:09:50 AM) mjgiarlo: I am fine with s/piles of data/application/. Either one is useful.
(11:10:06 AM) charper: and to link outward - dbpedia, opan-calais, &c.
(11:10:40 AM) charper: I think I'd still like to have a data-piles/metadata-heaps track to the afternoon.
(11:10:42 AM) rsinger: i feel like if it's directed on monday, it will give them the experience to s/our application/their data/ in the future
(11:10:54 AM) charper: In case there's other full on metadata nerds there...
(11:11:03 AM) rsinger: the give a man a fish/teach a man to fish deal
(11:11:08 AM) edsu: charper: there will be
(11:11:34 AM) charper: XC people have expressed an interesting in offering us a pile of data in there schema to play with.
(11:11:35 AM) mjgiarlo: Are we talking about takeaways in order to scope the PM sessions?
(11:11:49 AM) rsinger: mjgiarlo: both sessions
(11:11:49 AM) charper: And they're working in a LOD-ready environment.
(11:11:52 AM) edsu: charper: oh yeah, is it already in triples?
(11:12:13 AM) charper: I believe a lot of it is in rdf/xml, yeah.
(11:12:27 AM) rsinger: xc is? really?
(11:12:32 AM) charper: And they're registering a lot of there properties with Diane and Jon.
(11:12:42 AM) edsu: just being able to think in terms of a graph, instead of a document will be new for people i think
(11:12:51 AM) rsinger: me too
(11:13:03 AM) edsu: so it would be valuable to have a pool of data to just rifle through with php, ruby whatever
(11:13:17 AM) edsu: charper: can you look into getting a copy of that?
(11:13:30 AM) edsu: charper: also, can we pin down what you are going to talk about a bit more?
(11:13:32 AM) charper: edsu: Yeah - I'll follow with Jennifer / Dave.
(11:13:48 AM) charper: edsu: sure... wait, you expect me to know in advance?!?!
(11:14:59 AM) mjgiarlo: Right now charper's got a 15-minute post-lunch slot re: "Linked Data and Libraries"
(11:15:13 AM) mjgiarlo: so sayeth the scratchpad.
(11:15:46 AM) edsu: charper: i'm biased, but i like what you have written and said about the potential of library authority data and linked data
(11:16:09 AM) charper: edsu: problem is, you and anders will likely cover much of that.
(11:16:28 AM) charper: My thinking was that I'd talk a bit about my feelings re: *why*
(11:16:30 AM) edsu: charper: yes, but we could go after you
(11:16:36 AM) charper: Mmm - that's true.
(11:17:00 AM) edsu: another option is digging into the outside library world of linked data
(11:17:08 AM) edsu: dbpedia, geonames, freebase, etc
(11:17:15 AM) rsinger: ok, so from the perspective of "we have a bunch of piles of data to play with" -- what can we 'make' with that?
(11:17:28 AM) rsinger: i seriously think a 'practical' application needs to come out of this
(11:17:37 AM) edsu: rsinger: i think the goal w/ the data would be to just get familiar with tools
(11:18:02 AM) charper: I wonder if we could tie it all back to that conference app...
(11:18:21 AM) edsu: i'm game for the conference app idea, but it seems ambitious
(11:18:41 AM) edsu: although, rsinger don't you have a conference appp already, from previous codefest?
(11:19:14 AM) rsinger: well, conferencekeeper -- the diebold-o-matic-o-tron
(11:19:53 AM) edsu: so rather than building something up from scratch i think it would be possible to turn that into a linked-data app possibly
(11:20:18 AM) mjgiarlo: latest idea = charper talks about value of linked authority data, then edsu about lcsh, then anders about libris?
(11:20:19 AM) rsinger: well, i was seriously thinking much more piecemeal than that
(11:20:34 AM) rsinger: but, yes, for the 'glue', we could do that
(11:20:38 AM) charper: I'm just thinking out loud, but what about if we pool together & link a bunch of conf & non-conf data, then see what happens if we dump it into something like exhibit?
(11:21:13 AM) charper: http://code.google.com/p/simile-widgets/
(11:21:38 AM) edsu: mjgiarlo: i like that i think
(11:21:49 AM) mjgiarlo: k, reflected on scratchpad
(11:21:57 AM) edsu: mjgiarlo++
(11:23:35 AM) edsu: i'm wondering if jphipps should be moved up
(11:24:14 AM) rsinger: ok, so here's what i was thinking, possibly
(11:24:22 AM) edsu: well actually registries goes well w/ openvocab, after lbjay's to explain what to do if there doesn't seem to be a vocab for you to use
(11:24:29 AM) rsinger: we build something SIMPLE to describe the conf/preconf
(11:24:30 AM) mjgiarlo: edsu: you don't like openvocab and registries together? ah, okay.
(11:24:36 AM) edsu: no i do
(11:24:37 AM) rsinger: perhaps RDF-only
(11:25:03 AM) rsinger: and then have one of the groups come up with apps that do something with it
(11:25:04 AM) rsinger: like
(11:25:09 AM) mjgiarlo: edsu: maybe jphipps' RDA stuff could be broken out and moved up?
(11:25:17 AM) rsinger: calculate the combined "blogworth" of the attendees
(11:25:30 AM) rsinger: or the carbon footprint of the miles traveled to attend or something
(11:25:35 AM) edsu: corey, maybe you could incorporate rda into your linked-authority talk?
(11:25:42 AM) charper: edsu: I could do that.
(11:25:51 AM) edsu: and jphipps can gesture about how the registry is being used in that effort?
(11:26:01 AM) rsinger: gesticulate wildly
(11:26:05 AM) lbjay: i think we need an e-mail list to follow up on what we're discussing here
(11:26:07 AM) charper: It would actually fit with the "other data" too - in talking about the value of library URI's to the rest of the cloud.
(11:26:37 AM) mjgiarlo: lbjay: was pondering that last week.
(11:26:40 AM) edsu: charper: right on
(11:26:42 AM) charper: As I was just pointing out, iand's frbr stuff landed in the BBC's program ontology...
(11:26:57 AM) edsu: charper: i just adjusted your talk title in etherpad, does that seem ok?
(11:27:06 AM) edsu: charper: it did?
(11:27:26 AM) edsu: i think it'll be really important to stress the evolutionary bit about these vocabs
(11:27:32 AM) charper: edsu: sure.
(11:27:39 AM) charper: I don't want to steal RDA from jphipps, though.
(11:28:59 AM) charper: edsu: I still haven't found instance data that uses it, but the namespace shows up: http://www.bbc.co.uk/ontologies/programmes/2008-02-28.shtml
(11:29:17 AM) ***edsu wonders if sindice has crawled it yet
(11:30:04 AM) charper: I was poking at that bbc data set, and getting really excited about the spaces where our authority *and* bib data would link rather nicely.
(11:30:05 AM) edsu: so does anyone feel capable of slapping times on the AM sessions?
(11:30:45 AM) edsu: charper: cool, yeah it's really interesting to think about library data being used outside of the context of libraries
(11:31:04 AM) mjgiarlo: I'll take a stab
(11:31:25 AM) charper: mjgiarlo: if I drink enough coffee, I only need 20 min...
(11:31:25 AM) rsinger: not to sound like a broken record...
(11:31:56 AM) rsinger: but what do we think is realistic for the afternoon session?
(11:32:45 AM) lbjay: list created: http://groups.google.com/group/lod-preconf
(11:32:54 AM) lbjay: we can use it or not
(11:33:15 AM) ***rsinger joined.
(11:33:28 AM) edsu: lbjay: you want to invite the people in the list?
(11:33:36 AM) lbjay: I gotta split. I have a date with a chacarerro sandwich
(11:33:37 AM) mjgiarlo: is 1:45 too long to go without a break?
(11:33:38 AM) lbjay: edsu: ok
(11:33:50 AM) ***edsu joined
(11:33:59 AM) rsinger: mjgiarlo: no, i don't think so
(11:34:00 AM) edsu: lbjay: seeyas
(11:34:04 AM) edsu: lbjay: and thanks!
(11:34:10 AM) lbjay: i'll send invites to the planners on the list you sent out
(11:34:11 AM) rsinger: mjgiarlo: ~ the length of a movie
(11:34:24 AM) mjgiarlo: Great.
(11:34:57 AM) edsu: mjgiarlo: i could talk 15 mins longer i guess
(11:35:04 AM) edsu: and we could break after corey?
(11:35:44 AM) charper: looks like lunch might get pushed back a bit.
(11:35:50 AM) charper: Maybe that makes sense, though?
(11:36:14 AM) charper: 3.5 hours in morning, 3 hours after lunch?
(11:36:36 AM) edsu: people will be crispy and in need of beverage by then
(11:36:45 AM) mjgiarlo: k, revision 3 has times.
(11:37:16 AM) mjgiarlo: comments and edits appreciated
(11:37:39 AM) edsu: i'm pretty happy with that
(11:39:14 AM) mjgiarlo: edsu: your intro could be longer if you want, and we could shift the break, add a shorter break elsewhere, etc. I like having charper's talk followed immediately by edsu's and anders's, and also having lbjay's followed immediately by iand's and jphipps's.
(11:39:27 AM) mjgiarlo: edsu: don't wanna short-change you.
(11:40:42 AM) charper: mjgiarlo: yeah, the order of things in the morning seems natural, and definitely don't want to short-change edsu.
(11:41:20 AM) mjgiarlo: I am very pleased with the AM.
(11:41:40 AM) edsu: no, it's cool
(11:41:43 AM) edsu: 15 min is better
(11:41:56 AM) edsu: yeah, the am seems pretty solid to me now
(11:42:29 AM) edsu: rsinger: so what do you think of the AM?
(11:42:35 AM) rsinger: looks great to me
(11:42:44 AM) edsu: also, people in channel who might be attending what do you think of the AM :)
(11:42:50 AM) mjgiarlo: adjourn soon and solidify the PM on the list and/or next Friday?
(11:42:53 AM) edsu: am => http://etherpad.com/Bzk4mctKuB
(11:43:01 AM) mjgiarlo: ^ That was my stomach speaking.
(11:43:08 AM) edsu: mjgiarlo: aye
(11:43:17 AM) edsu: ok so that's a wrap then i guess?
(11:43:25 AM) mjgiarlo: Though I certainly have no desire to get in the way of momentum, or shut people up. :)
(11:43:44 AM) edsu: i'm going to cut n' paste this into the wiki?
(11:44:19 AM) charper: edsu - yeah, I think that's ready for the wiki.
(11:44:38 AM) rsinger: i think the morning looks great
(11:44:43 AM) rsinger: i have no idea about pm
(11:44:55 AM) ***charper still contemplating how to work rda/frbr/xc/piles-o-metadata into pm...
(11:45:02 AM) edsu: mjgiarlo: can you pop the logs into the discussion too?
(11:45:17 AM) edsu: charper: yeah, this is something we can chat about next time?
(11:45:17 AM) mjgiarlo: edsu: will do. prolly in the PM, since I like to clean it up a bit.
(11:45:22 AM) edsu: ok
(11:46:11 AM) charper: esdu: yep. next time it is, or on the new list...
February 13th #code4lib planning meeting
(10:06:15 AM) ***MrDys rings the 10am bell
(10:07:51 AM) mjgiarlo has changed the topic to: Welcome to code4lib! (http://code4lib.org) -- code4lib 2009 linkeddata preconf planning
(10:11:24 AM) edsu: mjgiarlo: sorry, train had hiccup prevented me from getting here on time
(10:16:54 AM) edsu: so uh, is anyone here for this linked-data preconf thing?
(10:17:01 AM) lbjay: edsu: present
(10:17:05 AM) rsinger: edsu: here
(10:17:09 AM) jdatema: here
(10:17:10 AM) charper: edsu: me too.
(10:17:17 AM) edsu: rawk
(10:17:23 AM) ***MrDys raises his hand
(10:17:32 AM) dlovins: present
(10:17:52 AM) edsu: dlovins, MrDys hey, welcome :)
(10:17:59 AM) mjgiarlo: edsu: ain't no thang, I'm trying to do too many things at once.
(10:18:35 AM) edsu: so, before we start talking abuot the afternoon session, should we just see if there's anything else we want to talk about for the AM?
(10:18:58 AM) charper: edsu: We should chat about how to squeeze dchud in without disrupting timeline.
(10:19:04 AM) edsu: how do people feel about the am schedule? http://wiki.code4lib.org/index.php/LinkedData#02.2F23_AM_Tutorial.2C_Attendees:_48
(10:19:06 AM) charper: I'm happy to cut my talk short to make space for him.
(10:19:10 AM) edsu: charper: good memory, yeah
(10:19:27 AM) edsu: charper: how about we just cut into the q&a?
(10:19:47 AM) ***lbjay would also be happy to go for less time
(10:20:08 AM) MrDys: I kinda feel like q&a will happen as it goes on and doesn't really need a dedicated slot at the end
(10:20:33 AM) charper: edsu: just keep in mind that my having a full half hour is dangerous - might end up delving into DCAM at some stage, and no one wants that.
(10:20:48 AM) rsinger: no, we do
(10:20:56 AM) edsu: yeah, I do too
(10:20:59 AM) rsinger: charper: i mean, that's exactly what i want, anywya
(10:21:03 AM) lbjay: edsu: seriously. give dchud 15 of my minutes
(10:21:10 AM) edsu: charper: i want you to have enough time to get into something
(10:21:26 AM) edsu: lbjay: ok, charper are you ok with that?
(10:21:37 AM) ***lbjay is uncomfortable with the idea of taking more time than others who are probably way more qualified to talk about this stuff
(10:21:42 AM) edsu: i have a hunch dchud is going to want to talk about his light-weight-linked-data (aka no rdf)
(10:22:15 AM) charper: okay - that works out well for me.
(10:22:16 AM) edsu: where should we slot in dchud?
(10:22:30 AM) rsinger: probably at the end
(10:22:34 AM) edsu: if we shorten lbjay's piece ?
(10:22:51 AM) edsu: i think what dchud has to say might work well after corey maybe
(10:22:54 AM) rsinger: hrm
(10:23:09 AM) jdatema: or just before
(10:23:12 AM) charper: edsu: I was thinking that too, or maybe after iand
(10:23:13 AM) rsinger: i think the vocab selection thing is so important
(10:23:23 AM) charper: rsinger: i definitely agree.
(10:23:24 AM) edsu: since i think he's going to anchor it in what libraries could be doing with linked data
(10:23:35 AM) rsinger: ah
(10:23:50 AM) charper: edsu: he being dchud?
(10:23:54 AM) edsu: vocab selection, openvocab and registries will all be about finding using vocabs
(10:24:00 AM) rsinger: i thought it was gonna be all "don't sell me your rdf"
(10:24:04 AM) ***jbrinley votes for a 90 second dchud interlude after each presentation
(10:24:26 AM) edsu: rsinger: if he does that's ok -- i think he wants to talk about stuff from his blog post
(10:24:43 AM) jbrinley: perhaps call it a rebuttal
(10:24:46 AM) edsu: -> http://onebiglibrary.net/story/caching-and-proxying-linked-data
(10:24:50 AM) lbjay: zoia++
(10:24:53 AM) rsinger: edsu: ah, yes
(10:25:07 AM) edsu: i think dchud, hopefully, can articulate more about the 'so what can i do with this'
(10:25:07 AM) charper: edsu: if that's the case, it's a really important thing to cover.
(10:25:34 AM) edsu: rsinger: i'm just guessing though
(10:25:41 AM) charper: Given that that was just on the edges of a topic on the public-lod w3c list...
(10:25:52 AM) rsinger: edsu: i guess it would be helpful to know exactly what he wants to do
(10:25:54 AM) edsu: charper: yeah, the link rot one/
(10:26:16 AM) rsinger: because if it's all "this is great and all... but what if..."
(10:26:37 AM) rsinger: then i think it's best to come at the end when people have their heads around the environment
(10:26:37 AM) edsu: rsinger: yeah, true
(10:27:28 AM) charper: rsinger: he could serve as intro to the breakouts in the afternoon.
(10:27:39 AM) rsinger: IF that's what he wants to talk about
(10:27:45 AM) mjgiarlo: I agree re: having dchud be the closer.
(10:27:59 AM) rsinger: it's too vague right now
(10:28:17 AM) edsu: lets give him the benefit of the doubt, and ask him on the linked-preconf discussion list
(10:28:41 AM) rsinger: +1
(10:28:47 AM) mjgiarlo: so for now, no changes to AM schedule. works for me.
(10:29:05 AM) mjgiarlo: or was there agreement on killing the Q&A? or shortening lbjay's bit?
(10:29:53 AM) edsu: ok, i'm going to edit the schedule, one sec
(10:36:16 AM) mjgiarlo: edsu: "why the web?" == dchud's bit?
(10:36:41 AM) edsu: mjgiarlo: yeah, maybe you could change it? i tried to summarize his blog post with a pithy 3 worder
(10:39:12 AM) mjgiarlo: my only question about putting dchud and a break right after charper is that I thought we talked about keeping charper, anders, and edsu in a little block.
(10:44:13 AM) edsu: mjgiarlo: i thought i put dchud after charper, before the break?
(10:44:37 AM) edsu: http://wiki.code4lib.org/index.php/LinkedData#02.2F23_AM_Tutorial.2C_Attendees:_48
(10:44:58 AM) mjgiarlo: right, but I thought there was talk of keeping charper, then anders, then edsu in a block? now we've got dchud and a break in there.
(10:45:08 AM) mjgiarlo: catapanoth: hey terry!
(10:45:13 AM) catapanoth: hey mike
(10:45:25 AM) edsu: catapanoth: glad you could make it
(10:45:27 AM) catapanoth: OK. Already started.
(10:45:31 AM) edsu: (heheh)
(10:45:44 AM) catapanoth: me too.
(10:46:32 AM) edsu: mjgiarlo: so yeah i guess we could push me and anders before the break?
(10:46:46 AM) edsu: mjgiarlo: keep the pace up? it's just an extra 1/2 hour i guess?
(10:46:59 AM) charper: mjgiarlo: Is the reason for grouping edsu, anders and I to focus on the authorities stuff?
(10:47:08 AM) mjgiarlo: charper: I believe that was it, yes, thanks. :)
(10:47:10 AM) edsu: dchud is a good speaker, so i think including him early when the caffeine is still in effect is good
(10:47:10 AM) charper: I could break my talk up into 2 15 min segments too.
(10:47:24 AM) mjgiarlo: edsu: Yeah, good point.
(10:47:37 AM) mjgiarlo: and I do like that the break comes a bit earlier now.
(10:48:59 AM) bfrederi: got here a little late.
(10:49:08 AM) edsu: no problem, we all kinda started late
(10:49:11 AM) mjgiarlo: well, let's leave the schedule as is and see what dchud wants to do, and move on to the nebulous PM session. we can finalize that next Friday or on the mailing list?
(10:49:23 AM) edsu: bfrederi: we're just reviewing the am schedule http://wiki.code4lib.org/index.php/LinkedData#02.2F23_AM_Tutorial.2C_Attendees:_48
(10:49:44 AM) rsinger: yeah, w/o knowing what dchud actually wants to say, i think it's hard to schedule him
(10:50:30 AM) edsu: rsinger: are you ok w/ him where he is now ... and we can adjust later when we here what he's going to talk about?
(10:50:42 AM) rsinger: i don't care where he goes, i guess
(10:50:48 AM) edsu: rsinger: if it's going to be fuck-that-rdf, then maybe put him later in the day?
(10:51:01 AM) edsu: rsinger: but i don't think that's what he wants to talk about
(10:51:27 AM) rsinger: it just seems like if he's going to be asking tough questions about the 'web as platform' then it makes sense for people to be most informed going into it
(10:51:45 AM) rsinger: and i don't mean 'critical' questions
(10:52:04 AM) charper: There are good practical tough questions to be asked.
(10:52:20 AM) edsu: rsinger: ok, so you are still leaning towards the end of the day then?
(10:52:27 AM) charper: I'd agree that if he's talking about things from his post, it's very practically oriented, and should set up the breakouts.
(10:52:30 AM) rsinger: but dchud's at his best if people are at their smartest
(10:52:51 AM) rsinger: edsu: end of day? or end of morning?
(10:53:06 AM) mjgiarlo: end_of_AM++
(10:53:22 AM) jdatema: point of his post seemed to be about the need for caching (even P2P distribution), which sets up practical questions
(10:53:31 AM) mjgiarlo: btw, the dchud post we're talking about is the "proxying and caching" one?
(10:53:33 AM) jdatema: end_of_AM++
(10:53:56 AM) mjgiarlo: I'm already in there, BREAKING ALL YOUR GOOD WORK
(10:55:15 AM) mjgiarlo: k, new proposal is up.
(10:55:39 AM) edsu: mjgiarlo: right on
(10:56:03 AM) mjgiarlo: on to PM planning?
(10:56:06 AM) edsu: so any more questions/concerns about the morning?
(10:56:18 AM) edsu: i have one more thing i'd like to float
(10:56:27 AM) rsinger: ok
(10:57:08 AM) edsu: i was wondering if it made sense to give out some printouts of key documentation for people to have
(10:57:25 AM) rsinger: i think this is really good idea... but... what?
(10:57:29 AM) mjgiarlo: the four tenets/principles/whatevers?
(10:57:29 AM) lbjay: edsu: that was something i considered volunteering for
(10:57:34 AM) edsu: cool uris for the semantic web, how to pubish linked data
(10:57:41 AM) rsinger: but printed out?
(10:57:49 AM) edsu: mjgiarlo: yeah, that too
(10:57:53 AM) lbjay: edsu: i can do it. and bind them even.
(10:57:54 AM) mjgiarlo: Would be good reading for flights home.
(10:58:04 AM) edsu: lbjay: are you serious?
(10:58:11 AM) jbrinley: edsu: if it's something we'll need for reference during the pre-conf, yes. if it's not, and it's available online, just give us URLs
(10:58:21 AM) ***lbjay loves a chance to fire up the CombiBind apparatus
(10:58:27 AM) mjgiarlo: I like the idea of sticking paper in their hands.
(10:58:28 AM) edsu: jbrinley: i dunno, it might come in handy during the afternoon
(10:58:34 AM) edsu: jbrinley: not so much for the AM
(10:58:37 AM) ***lbjay likes handouts
(10:58:50 AM) ***edsu does too
(10:58:59 AM) mjgiarlo: It's easier to dismiss one URL among the hundreds they will acquire over the course of the conf.
(10:59:03 AM) edsu: if it's just a url, it's easy to ignore
(10:59:05 AM) catapanoth: the cool uri's doc is pretty short, and would be good to have in hand
(10:59:18 AM) edsu: catapanoth: aye
(10:59:24 AM) catapanoth: perhaps encourage people to print it out and bring it?
(10:59:34 AM) lbjay: so lets settle on a list of materials i guess
(10:59:39 AM) mjgiarlo: put paper in their hands and they can refer back to it, keep it at their desks, etc.
(10:59:41 AM) ***jbrinley has a good filing system for URL (i.e., delicious), not so much for paper
(10:59:44 AM) edsu: well if lbjay can do it, i'd like to have them to give out
(10:59:47 AM) edsu: lbjay: can you really do it?
(10:59:49 AM) lbjay: something that adds up to < 50 pages i'm hoping
(10:59:53 AM) rsinger: i don't mind packets, i would discourage "volumes"
(10:59:54 AM) lbjay: edsu: yup
(11:00:02 AM) edsu: lbjay: yeah, should be less than 50 for sure
(11:00:12 AM) rsinger: < 20, i would hope
(11:00:20 AM) mjgiarlo: the two edsu mentioned are really key.
(11:00:33 AM) ***rsinger "books"
(11:00:45 AM) mjgiarlo: and probably subsume the four tenets thang.
(11:00:45 AM) ***rsinger feigns horror.
(11:01:00 AM) edsu: i like the four tenets one too, it's short
(11:01:03 AM) mjgiarlo: so +1 to cool_uris and how_to_publish
(11:01:05 AM) edsu: and it could be the first doc
(11:01:10 AM) mjgiarlo: true 'nuff
(11:01:17 AM) edsu: it's where it all started after all
(11:01:58 AM) edsu: lbjay: so less than 50 pages, and 50 copies?
(11:02:08 AM) lbjay: yep
(11:02:30 AM) lbjay: ~20-30 would be great
(11:02:43 AM) charper: The how to doc hits almost 50p on it's own.
(11:02:51 AM) edsu: charper: oh it does?
(11:02:52 AM) charper: cool uris is much shorter.
(11:02:55 AM) lbjay: maybe one page could be a bibliography of stuff that doesn't make the cut
(11:03:08 AM) charper: edsu: according to print preview.
(11:03:13 AM) edsu: hmm ok
(11:03:20 AM) rsinger: charper: the lod how to?
(11:03:24 AM) lbjay: charper: really?
(11:03:25 AM) edsu: but that would be 25 double sided
(11:03:29 AM) mjgiarlo: +1 to bibliography page
(11:03:34 AM) lbjay: right, double sided fo sho
(11:03:42 AM) rsinger: yeah, totally +1 to bibliography
(11:03:46 AM) rsinger: In bibo
(11:03:54 AM) rsinger: lbjay: your printer does bibo, right?
(11:03:57 AM) edsu: rsinger: hahaha, that would be awesome
(11:04:12 AM) edsu: we could print out the bibliography in turtle tho
(11:04:22 AM) lbjay: ha +1
(11:04:27 AM) rsinger: awesome
(11:04:43 AM) charper: rsinger: that would be too good.
(11:04:56 AM) edsu: anyhow, so it sounds like this is an option, i'll work on the bibliography on the wiki, and lbjay you can figure out what we can fit in?
(11:04:59 AM) lbjay: there were four things i read over the summer that were responsible for my aha moment. trying to remember what the other two were.
(11:05:05 AM) lbjay: edsu: yep
(11:05:09 AM) charper: Only other doc I can think of that's pretty central is TBL's original design note that started this whole "Linked data" thing.
(11:05:09 AM) charper: http://www.w3.org/DesignIssues/LinkedData.html
(11:05:12 AM) edsu: lbjay: cool, lets try to remember those 4
(11:05:29 AM) catapanoth: +1 on the design issues doc.
(11:05:38 AM) lbjay: charper: that was one
(11:05:49 AM) edsu: yeah, that was the 4 tennant's we were talking about earlier, cryptically
(11:06:01 AM) lbjay: maybe one or two of the important w3 docs too...
(11:06:52 AM) rsinger: http://research.talis.com/2005/rdf-intro/
(11:07:51 AM) lbjay: http://delicious.com/tag/linkeddata+tutorial is like a broken record
(11:07:56 AM) charper: rsinger: don't think I've looked at that Talis intro before - good stuff. Love Homer eating the SemWeb Stack.
(11:08:34 AM) rsinger: charper: that was my a ha moment
(11:08:41 AM) lbjay: no slides please. need to keep data:ink ratio high
(11:08:56 AM) rsinger: lbjay: no, that's for the bibliography
(11:09:10 AM) edsu: http://www.w3.org/History/1989/proposal.html :-)
(11:09:27 AM) lbjay: well, if they were really good slides i guess
(11:09:35 AM) charper: edsu++
(11:09:48 AM) charper: Add a photocopy of the first 10 pages of "Weaving the Web".
(11:09:56 AM) rsinger: lbjay: no, really, i just mean for the bibliography
(11:10:31 AM) lbjay: rsinger: i know. just now thinking a couple of figures/images wouldn't hurt
(11:10:42 AM) edsu: ok so we all agree (i guess) that giving out some little packet is a good idea, we can continue to discuss on the linked-data preconf list?
(11:10:57 AM) charper: Just the homer slide, for levity and to hammer home the point....
(11:11:19 AM) charper: Ties to that design issues note, and Martin's quote from the Talis podcast about SemWeb folks focusing on the Sem and forgetting about the Web.
(11:11:21 AM) lbjay: edsu: i think it's key. having something tangible to take away and review is always a + for me
(11:12:03 AM) mjgiarlo: edsu: +1
(11:12:03 AM) MrDys: cuts down on spending the entire time copying URLs and notetaking
(11:12:07 AM) MrDys: so +1 from me
(11:12:28 AM) edsu: lbjay: you don't need $$ (again)?
(11:12:36 AM) jdatema: +1 for handout
(11:12:45 AM) edsu: lbjay: you have magic book reprap machine or something?
(11:13:08 AM) lbjay: edsu: yep, here at work. consider it "sponsorship" by EL
(11:13:14 AM) edsu: lbjay: sweet
(11:13:23 AM) mjgiarlo: lbjay++ # excellent.
(11:13:51 AM) charper: lbjay: Thanks for that.
(11:14:00 AM) edsu: lbjay++
(11:14:14 AM) edsu: ok, so anything else about the AM we want to talk about, before diving into the pm?
(11:14:26 AM) charper: pm scary...
(11:14:31 AM) ***charper shudders
(11:14:55 AM) rsinger: edsu: i don't think so
(11:15:07 AM) edsu: cool, so how do we even start thinking about the PM?
(11:16:01 AM) charper: edsu: still conceptualized as hands-on breakout sessions?
(11:16:23 AM) edsu: charper: in my mind, yes, with some time at the end to regroup
(11:16:27 AM) rsinger: i promise i will keep from promoting my concept
(11:16:34 AM) edsu: charper: i guess there were some people not signed up for the AM who are in the PM though
(11:17:06 AM) edsu: rsinger: what was that concept again?
(11:17:13 AM) charper: edsu: That could still be okay.
(11:17:16 AM) rsinger: no
(11:17:20 AM) rsinger: i said i wouldn't
(11:17:25 AM) mjgiarlo: Could use the last half-hour of the AM session to drive the PM session, though we should still prepare now and next week. Maybe we could put some feelers out on list?
(11:17:32 AM) edsu: talking about it isn't necessarily promoting it :)
(11:17:47 AM) edsu: mjgiarlo: i like that idea
(11:18:12 AM) charper: edsu: rsingers proposal was the idea of representing the preconf as LOD if I remember.
(11:18:19 AM) charper: Which I liked.
(11:18:20 AM) edsu: i think part of the success of the PM will be staying flexible to accomodate where the interest is
(11:18:39 AM) edsu: i'd still like to encourage people to create a foaf for themself
(11:18:48 AM) rsinger: yes, that's part of my idea
(11:18:50 AM) edsu: and publish it somewhere
(11:19:04 AM) eby_: c4l09: go foaf yourself
(11:19:14 AM) mjgiarlo: eby_++
(11:19:47 AM) eby_: coffee++
(11:19:50 AM) rsinger: rsinger foaf:knows <email@example.com>
(11:19:57 AM) ***edsu adds "go foaf yourself"
(11:19:57 AM) ***mjgiarlo added that to the wiki
(11:20:01 AM) catapanoth: I'd like to see some in-depth discussion of implementation: say designing and setting up all that HTTP 303 crap
(11:20:14 AM) edsu: mjgiarlo: whoops :)
(11:20:22 AM) mjgiarlo: edsu: just added to "possible outcomes" but feel free to shift
(11:20:55 AM) edsu: mjgiarlo: k, i removed mine :)
(11:21:12 AM) edsu: catapanoth: right on, that's a good one too
(11:21:23 AM) catapanoth: and on the other end, actual examples of processing rdf: what libraries exist in different languages, lessons learned, etc...
(11:21:37 AM) edsu: catapanoth: one of the authors of the http://www.w3.org/TR/swbp-vocab-pub/ is going to be there
(11:21:43 AM) edsu: catapanoth: jonphipps
(11:21:50 AM) catapanoth: nice.
(11:21:56 AM) mjgiarlo: catapanoth++ # great ideas
(11:22:07 AM) edsu: mjgiarlo: you adding it?
(11:22:21 AM) mjgiarlo: sher.
(11:22:45 AM) edsu: add it above the possible outcomes if you can
(11:23:12 AM) catapanoth: someone also mentioned earlier a recommendation system based on measuring distance in graphs, love to hear more about that.
(11:23:32 AM) edsu: the crafty rob sanderson (azaroth)
(11:23:39 AM) edsu: who (alas) won't be there
(11:24:07 AM) mjgiarlo: edsu: add to session topics, you mean?
(11:24:12 AM) edsu: yea?
(11:24:29 AM) edsu: i like the idea of a Go FOAF Yerself session too honestly
(11:24:47 AM) mjgiarlo: k, 's what I did. (though I put it at the top, but the order there shouldn't matter (yet))
(11:25:03 AM) edsu: yeah, they were mostly be parallel anyhow
(11:25:20 AM) catapanoth: yes, I think the go FOAF is a great idea.
(11:25:32 AM) rsinger: basically i think we should just have go foaf yourself, some aggregation via a representation of the pre-conf and then build a few demo consumers
(11:25:45 AM) ***lbjay likes it
(11:25:45 AM) edsu: how about people that want to talk about processing rdf graphs with their favorite language?
(11:26:12 AM) mjgiarlo: and focus on the practical angles catapanoth suggsted: tools for consuming, and options for how to implement all the http/conneg/etc. stuff.
(11:26:38 AM) catapanoth: + on processing graphs
(11:26:39 AM) edsu: so there's two main angles
(11:26:45 AM) mjgiarlo: sounds like the PM session is going more unconf/hackfest style, which I would dig.
(11:26:53 AM) edsu: publishing and consuming
(11:27:02 AM) lbjay: edsu: are you talking concurrent tracks or sequential?
(11:27:11 AM) edsu: mjgiarlo: yeah, i like it too, most people will be burnt anyhow
(11:27:18 AM) mjgiarlo: I think we're talking concurrent, lbjay
(11:27:50 AM) edsu: lbjay: i was thinking concurrent
(11:28:03 AM) lbjay: so some folks will skip the foaf creation
(11:28:08 AM) rsinger: how about two blocks?
(11:28:17 AM) rsinger: of concurrent groups?
(11:28:21 AM) lbjay: safe to assume several will already have a foaf file
(11:28:26 AM) rsinger: yeah
(11:28:36 AM) edsu: i'm afraid that some people will generate the foaf, and maybe use it, and see it aggregated, but come away without seeing how much data there is out there already
(11:28:41 AM) rsinger: it's also safe to assume that it won't take the whole hour and a half to create one
(11:28:57 AM) lbjay: rsinger: right
(11:29:23 AM) charper: people could also jump between sessions.
(11:29:35 AM) rsinger: well that depends
(11:29:36 AM) charper: Say we split into these, one on aggregation, one on publishing.
(11:29:38 AM) edsu: yeah, i think people should be encourage to float, and even leave
(11:29:41 AM) edsu: if they get bored
(11:29:47 AM) lbjay: GTFO
(11:29:52 AM) edsu: and to create new groups as needed
(11:29:54 AM) charper: The publishers finish there stuff, and that puts the aggregators in a position to do something with it.
(11:29:57 AM) rsinger: right, but if it takes, say, 45 minutes to build your foaf
(11:30:17 AM) rsinger: and you go to the python rdf graph processors
(11:30:44 AM) edsu: i was thinking of suggesting to people to build a foaf file right at the beginning of the day
(11:30:46 AM) rsinger: and they've already gone over what it is how to use and are just trying apply it towards existing content
(11:30:48 AM) edsu: to get in on the book raffle
(11:30:48 AM) lbjay: do we also assume they will have a place to stick their foaf? or should we figure out foaf hosting?
(11:31:06 AM) edsu: so people could hack around at creating a foaf when they get bored during the AM
(11:31:06 AM) catapanoth: there's a book raffle?
(11:31:09 AM) lbjay: ooh, right. book raffle is the carrot
(11:31:54 AM) rsinger: what if i don't get bored?
(11:31:55 AM) edsu: catapanoth: yeah, nothing stunning but -- http://www.flickr.com/photos/inkdroid/3251002290/in/set-72157613284027719/
(11:32:03 AM) mjgiarlo: rsinger: then you're not trying hard enough.
(11:32:09 AM) edsu: rsinger: then you can work on it in the afternoon?
(11:32:14 AM) rsinger: plus i figure some people are going to need guidance, i would think
(11:32:15 AM) catapanoth: i like books
(11:32:19 AM) edsu: rsinger: in the Get FOAFed session?
(11:32:30 AM) rsinger: edsu: yeah
(11:32:34 AM) edsu: rsinger: yeah, definitely
(11:32:39 AM) gsf: can we just assume the half that know foaf can help the other half?
(11:32:57 AM) edsu: gsf: i'm hoping yes
(11:32:58 AM) lbjay: can we not have distracting spinoff sessions in the am?
(11:33:01 AM) rsinger: i think we have a bit of a conflict of scope
(11:33:10 AM) charper: rsinger: how so?
(11:33:13 AM) edsu: and there are foaf creators on the web people can use if need be
(11:34:04 AM) rsinger: charper: well, i'm a little worried that the afternoon is getting a little more advanced than our target audience
(11:34:39 AM) gsf: lbjay: as i read it, edsu's not calling for spinoff sessions, just individual hacking during the am
(11:34:44 AM) gsf: lbjay: which can't be stopped
(11:35:50 AM) mjgiarlo: I think it's worth mentioning the FOAF stuff in the first talk of the AM, but I agree with lbjay that maybe we shouldn't encourage that.
(11:35:53 AM) charper: rsinger: doesn't the concurrency help with that?
(11:36:14 AM) charper: rsinger: some folks doing a bit more advanced things if they're really chomping at the bit to work with something existing?
(11:36:24 AM) rsinger: charper: yes, but that's why i think it's important to organize that a little better
(11:36:47 AM) rsinger: charper: because it's the advanced people that are going to have to show the beginners how to do these things
(11:37:02 AM) lbjay: mjgiarlo: right. "In the PM we'll be working with everyone to create a FOAF file. If you're bored and want to do your earlier have at it (but don't bug us with questions)"
(11:37:12 AM) rsinger: basically, i think the beginners are the ones to set the pace of the PM
(11:37:20 AM) mjgiarlo: lbjay++ # works for me
(11:37:53 AM) azaroth: catapanoth: The idea was that you can measure the total distance between subjects in terms of the graph across all pairings
(11:38:02 AM) lbjay: can i just say, i think we're overestimating the possibility of boredom
(11:38:10 AM) edsu: rsinger: good point
(11:38:40 AM) lbjay: i mean, we have at least one theatre major among the presenters
(11:38:41 AM) edsu: lbjay: would you be ok with that, what you quoted?
(11:38:53 AM) charper: So long as we're all in the same room, can't folks who have a foaf and know foaf both float/help and design work on consuming / aggregating apps?
(11:38:55 AM) rsinger: i think blocking out a time for 'all hands on deck' for foafing yourself is going to have to be the way to go
(11:38:56 AM) edsu: i wanted to make sure people who were only there for the am could win a book
(11:38:58 AM) lbjay: edsu: yeah, sure
(11:39:21 AM) rsinger: edsu: well, there's always the conference that we can hand it out
(11:39:23 AM) edsu: rsinger: the first thing after lunch maybe?
(11:39:28 AM) rsinger: edsu: yes, exactly
(11:39:31 AM) edsu: rsinger++
(11:39:38 AM) mjgiarlo: charper: i'd be more than happy to do the foaf float.
(11:39:38 AM) edsu: then we break up from there?
(11:39:54 AM) lbjay: +1
(11:40:09 AM) rsinger: yes
(11:40:38 AM) rsinger: how much? 30 mins? 45 mins?
(11:40:40 AM) lbjay: 30-45 minutes, 1st thing after lunch
(11:40:40 AM) charper: mjgiarlo: me too.
(11:40:44 AM) edsu: i like the sounds of that myself
(11:40:56 AM) edsu: catapanoth: what do you think?
(11:41:05 AM) edsu: MrDys: ?
(11:41:26 AM) charper: edsu: I like that too.
(11:41:34 AM) charper: We've currently got:
(11:41:35 AM) charper: 12:30 - 14:00 -- Lunch 14:00 - 16:00 -- Breakout Sessions 16:00 - 17:00 -- Regroup/Wrapup
(11:41:41 AM) azaroth: catapanoth: Then build a recommender system based on clustering, using the distances between result sets
(11:41:50 AM) charper: So, 14:00-14:30/45 would be FOAFing yourself.
(11:41:52 AM) edsu: jbrinley: ?
(11:41:53 AM) lbjay: i think that time frame is reasonable so long as obstacles, such as hosting, are removed
(11:42:02 AM) edsu: catapanoth: k :)
(11:42:08 AM) charper: That leaves ~hour for anything else - what to do with that, then....?
(11:42:11 AM) jbrinley: edsu: ?
(11:42:14 AM) rsinger: lbjay: well, there's always identi.ca
(11:42:24 AM) lbjay: rsinger: was thinking that too
(11:42:27 AM) MrDys: I'm open to that...I've always found FOAF incredibly dry and boring, but if it can be shown that it's not then, please, open my eyes
(11:42:29 AM) edsu: jbrinley: just wondering if you are following the initial plan for the pm and if it makes sense for you
(11:42:58 AM) jbrinley: edsu: haven't been paying much attention, sorry
(11:43:14 AM) lbjay: MrDys: i would say lacking in gravitas, but not dry or boring
(11:43:43 AM) rsinger: MrDys: yeah, definitely the outcome is that we want to show the potential of creating data like that
(11:43:51 AM) MrDys: I guess my interest would be in seeing how FOAF can be used, rather than sitting down and hacking out a FOAF profile
(11:44:15 AM) charper: rsinger: but how do we do that without invoking the PM-scope problem you mentioned before?
(11:44:16 AM) lbjay: MrDys: exactly, but don't you need a FOAF file first?
(11:44:40 AM) MrDys: lbjay: or you could use existing ones to demonstrate
(11:44:51 AM) charper: Currently the afternoon topics list on wiki includes a bunch of working w/ rdf in [lang]
(11:44:56 AM) charper: Are we scratching that?
(11:45:02 AM) rsinger: no clue
(11:45:11 AM) MrDys: I just think that the level of people at the preconf will know enough to hack out some valid XML
(11:45:19 AM) lbjay: MrDys: or you could create some DOAP content instead and link it into our preconf graph somehow
(11:45:52 AM) rsinger: charper: personally, i think the "working with rdf in [lang]" should have an end result planned
(11:45:55 AM) rsinger: charper: and hack on that
(11:45:57 AM) lbjay: MrDys: its not the xml. it's the uris and the mixing of vocabularies
(11:45:57 AM) mjgiarlo: charper: I think that makes sense in the publishing/consuming examples catapanoth mentioned earlier.
(11:45:59 AM) rsinger: charper: or a couple
(11:46:02 AM) charper: lbjay: My question is, where will our preconf graph live, and is part of the afternoon looking at how to build something that actually uses that graph.
(11:46:12 AM) ***lbjay looks at rsinger
(11:46:16 AM) rsinger: ?
(11:46:27 AM) MrDys: lbjay: sounds good then
(11:46:33 AM) rsinger: so, the python "consumers" figure out the miles traveled to the preconf
(11:46:57 AM) charper: rsinger: oh - I see. That makes sense.
(11:46:57 AM) rsinger: and the php "consumers" figure out the blogworth
(11:47:09 AM) rsinger: or... something
(11:47:20 AM) rsinger: i'm just throwing out really /simple/ project ideas
(11:47:33 AM) charper: rsinger: can we do that in the hour+ between foafing and wrap-up?
(11:47:42 AM) rsinger: others can try to do something more complicated with it if they have the initiative
(11:47:58 AM) rsinger: i would *think* so -- but not sure
(11:48:02 AM) charper: Can we identify a few leads on those sessions?
(11:48:11 AM) lbjay: charper: could we use a semanitic wiki to build the graph?
(11:48:14 AM) charper: Someone on the PHP side who knows ARC2 well enough to play, etc.
(11:48:33 AM) charper: lbjay: I was thinking the same thing - either Sem Media Wiki, or even Drupal w/ the RDF Module.
(11:48:55 AM) mjgiarlo: we can always go until 4:30pm if we need extra hackin' time
(11:49:12 AM) mjgiarlo: and shorten the regroup/wrapup
(11:49:20 AM) edsu: sorry i got pulled away
(11:49:21 AM) lbjay: charper: right. and use the conference vocab so that folks can link in their FOAFs/whatevers
(11:49:39 AM) ***lbjay has misplaced the link to that conference vocab
(11:50:44 AM) edsu: i got started on a little app for crawling foafs
(11:50:49 AM) edsu: looking for conference attendees
(11:50:58 AM) edsu: which i was going to put a crappy web front end on
(11:51:09 AM) edsu: which could deliver the preconf graph
(11:51:13 AM) edsu: at a URL
(11:51:37 AM) edsu: the idea being that as the day went on and people got linked up, more people would appear on a page
(11:52:00 AM) lbjay: edsu: how do the attendees link in their data?
(11:52:07 AM) MrDys: edsu: I like that
(11:52:15 AM) jrochkind1: Hmm. Windows XP, driving me crazy.
(11:52:31 AM) charper: edsu: definitely good. Throw the growing graph on-screen between talks and during breaks....
(11:52:34 AM) edsu: lbjay: check out http://lackoftalent.org/michael/foaf.rdf#mjg and http://inkdroid.org/ehs.rdf
(11:52:53 AM) eby_: rsinger: talis api service question
(11:53:06 AM) edsu: basically just <http://inkdroid.org/ehs> swc:attendeeAt <http://code4lib.org/2009#conference> . (in your foaf profile)
(11:53:07 AM) rsinger: eby_: i'll try to answer
(11:53:26 AM) lbjay: edsu: right, but for your app to crawl and find them...
(11:53:36 AM) edsu: lbjay: that's the tricky part
(11:53:50 AM) lbjay: edsu: that's what i thought the semwiki would be good for
(11:53:53 AM) eby_: rsinger: is the transform service limited to xml outputted from the talis store or can i feed it non-talis xml uri's
(11:54:08 AM) rsinger: lbjay: http://www.eswc2006.org/rdf/
(11:54:09 AM) edsu: lbjay: people would add themself to the page?
(11:54:21 AM) eby_: rsinger: http://www.talis.com/tdn/platform/reference/api/transform
(11:54:34 AM) edsu: lbjay: as long as people are hooked up to someone else at the conference
(11:54:36 AM) rsinger: eby_: you can feed it anything, i think
(11:54:38 AM) lbjay: edsu: or... we could say to everyone... "OK, turn to your right. Add that person to your foaf as a foaf:knows"
(11:54:40 AM) edsu: lbjay: via foaf:knows
(11:54:48 AM) lbjay: edsu: right
(11:55:01 AM) lbjay: that could be kinda cool actually
(11:55:03 AM) edsu: lbjay: i think something like what i started at http://inkdroid.org/bzr/c4libbers/crawl.py can work
(11:55:12 AM) mjgiarlo: edsu: should the object of that predicate be http://code4lib.org/2009#conference or http://code4lib.org/node/266#linked-data-preconf ? I guess it doesn't really matter? :)
(11:55:29 AM) charper: edsu: both?
(11:55:33 AM) edsu: mjgiarlo: yeah, could be both
(11:55:37 AM) rsinger: eby_: yeah, you can feed it anything
(11:55:48 AM) edsu: mjgiarlo: i see you did both, which is correct i think
(11:55:51 AM) rsinger: eby_: you just need a URL for the XML and a URL for the XSLT
(11:56:02 AM) eby_: rsinger: thanks
(11:56:03 AM) edsu: mjgiarlo: but i was thinking (if it works) it could be used to give out books to *everyone* at the conference
(11:56:03 AM) rsinger: eby_: and they need to be accessible via curl
(11:56:27 AM) edsu: mjgiarlo: but i don't want to get ahead of myself
(11:56:50 AM) ***mjgiarlo nods
(11:56:56 AM) rsinger: i figured everyone would just write down their uri
(11:56:59 AM) edsu: anyhow, lbjay i like your idea of using the semantic wiki
(11:57:09 AM) rsinger: and one of the breakout groups would be to publish the preconf lod
(11:57:18 AM) edsu: lbjay: do you feel like you could own that part of it?
(11:57:30 AM) lbjay: i'm really liking the idea of asking each person to make FOAF friends with the person adjacent to them. to facilitate the crawling.
(11:57:31 AM) rsinger: the semantic wiki, of course, would be an easier solution
(11:57:42 AM) edsu: lbjay: and i'll try to get this crawler/data dumper working?
(11:57:47 AM) lbjay: ok
(11:57:48 AM) edsu: i think we should do both if we can
(11:57:58 AM) edsu: semantic wiki in general is a really useful thing to cover
(11:58:00 AM) lbjay: i'll own the semwiki part
(11:58:10 AM) edsu: lbjay++ # rock
(11:58:21 AM) ***lbjay has been meaning to try that out anywho
(11:58:38 AM) edsu: yeah, i'd love to learn more about it too
(11:58:43 AM) edsu: this is semantic media wiki right?
(11:58:51 AM) lbjay: edsu: that was my intention
(11:58:55 AM) edsu: nice
(11:59:00 AM) charper: lbjay++
(11:59:05 AM) charper: (again)
(11:59:36 AM) charper: lbjay: are you saying you could have a sort of a sandbox up somewhere?
(11:59:48 AM) edsu: charper: how about that rochester data?
(11:59:51 AM) mjgiarlo: folks who have a clearer idea of how the PM will be structured, feel free to capture that on the wiki. lots of distractions for me today.
(11:59:54 AM) lbjay: charper: i guess that's what i'm saying ;)
(12:00:03 PM) edsu: lbjay: do you need a machine to put it on?
(12:00:12 PM) lbjay: edsu: i could use reallywow
(12:00:18 PM) lbjay: edsu: other suggestions?
(12:00:19 PM) edsu: lbjay++
(12:00:23 PM) charper: edsu: Do we still want to look into the pile-o-data thing, or is that getting ahead of ourselves?
(12:00:24 PM) lbjay: ok, cool
(12:00:38 PM) edsu: charper: well so the foaf data will be one pile of data (hopefully)
(12:00:52 PM) edsu: but it might be nice to have a pile of library data
(12:00:55 PM) edsu: to play with
(12:00:59 PM) ***lbjay 's stomach growls
(12:01:07 PM) charper: edsu: I'll ping Jennifer today.
(12:01:10 PM) edsu: shoot, we are kind of out of time
(12:01:12 PM) rsinger: hrm
(12:01:23 PM) lbjay: @decide grinder or thai
(12:01:24 PM) zoia: lbjay: go with thai
(12:01:25 PM) edsu: also, i think it would be useful for people to see how much data is out there
(12:01:34 PM) edsu: on the web, that library data could be linked to
(12:01:40 PM) rsinger: is the rochester data 'out there', though?
(12:01:43 PM) rsinger: ah
(12:01:44 PM) edsu: the actual linking of data is the hard problem imho
(12:02:01 PM) edsu: i don't think the rochester data is out there
(12:02:17 PM) charper: rsinger: no, the rochester data isn't out there (yet).
(12:02:24 PM) edsu: i wonder if mmmmmRob's rdf/openlibrary data is available
(12:02:27 PM) rsinger: par for the course with them
(12:02:39 PM) rsinger: edsu: i don't think so
(12:02:46 PM) MrDys: what about the book data in freebase?
(12:03:00 PM) edsu: yeah, i don't know if they make their rdf dumps available
(12:03:03 PM) charper: This was part of why I started thinking Drupal - the XC folks have a whole Drupal toolkit planned.
(12:03:09 PM) edsu: it's definitely crawlable from freebase
(12:03:25 PM) rsinger: i guess i look at the PM as a very finite period of time
(12:03:48 PM) edsu: rsinger: i think you are right to
(12:04:00 PM) edsu: it'll blow by pretty quick
(12:04:15 PM) rsinger: and i look back at our chicago sprint thing... where there was no clear intended outcome
(12:04:15 PM) edsu: i'm really worried thought that people will miss the point that it's not just about FOAF
(12:04:19 PM) rsinger: and nothing got done
(12:04:41 PM) rsinger: because everything we could think of -- there was no way to do it one day
(12:04:50 PM) edsu: yeah
(12:05:07 PM) rsinger: edsu: that's why i think we need to build little apps that show how these things work in other ways
(12:05:08 PM) bseitz left the room (quit: Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
(12:05:19 PM) rsinger: edsu: that the foaf is just a means to the end
(12:05:24 PM) rsinger: edsu: and also a metaphor
(12:05:32 PM) edsu: rsinger: so what do you don't think people putting a foaf together, seeing it automatically harvested, and (perhaps) visualized, and maybe winning a book is an outcome?
(12:05:50 PM) anarchivist: charper: re: drupal - there's a NY semweb meetup during code4lib about rdf + drupal
(12:05:58 PM) rsinger: edsu: i think that's a great outcome
(12:06:23 PM) charper: anarchivist: I know - the timing's rough. Also, Brooklyn Poly's doing a drupal camp that includes an RDF session.
(12:06:23 PM) edsu: talk more about the little apps idea
(12:06:48 PM) rsinger: edsu: but i think throwing out some reasonably small 'visualization' ideas would help people get started
(12:07:39 PM) rsinger: edsu: i think even something like "show the delegate's point of origin on exhibit' would be a good start
(12:07:42 PM) edsu: any of you drupaler's played with the rdf stuff that they are cooking in?
(12:08:06 PM) rsinger: edsu: although i like the side effect of actually trying to use that to calculate distance or carbon footprint or something
(12:08:07 PM) anarchivist: edsu: the vocab import stuff could prove ueful
(12:08:08 PM) jdatema: edsu: yeah
(12:08:10 PM) edsu: would make for a nice afternoon session ...
(12:08:22 PM) jdatema: put the NISO ISQ article in it
(12:08:34 PM) jdatema: has a SPARQL endpoint
(12:08:44 PM) jdatema: might be nice for demo
(12:08:51 PM) charper: edsu: I'm just starting to play with drupal, and I'm getting kind of excited about it.
(12:08:59 PM) edsu: woah, i didn't realize they were doing sparql, i thought it was mainly modifying templates to emit rdfa, and some vocab control
(12:09:14 PM) charper: Maybe a parallel to lbjays Semantic Media Wiki session.
(12:09:20 PM) lbjay: For anyone sticking around the area post-conf, i saw that Peter Suber is doing a talk on open access at the Berkman center on Friday
(12:09:22 PM) edsu: charper: yes
(12:09:28 PM) edsu: charper: they are very similar
(12:09:48 PM) rsinger: i mean, i look at: http://www.eswc2006.org/rdf/
(12:09:56 PM) rsinger: and see a ton of possibilities of what to do with it
(12:10:17 PM) mjgiarlo: eby_: the latest version has more helpful error output, 0.9.2, if you don't have that one yet. I hope that it gets promoted out of the sandbox soon so it can take advantage of automatic updates, but we'll see.
(12:10:19 PM) jdatema: drupal RDF modules (http://drupal.org/node/222788) and SPARQL (http://drupal.org/project/sparql)
(12:10:31 PM) edsu: rsinger: cool, so if i gave you a dump of the foaf data that was crawled somebody could build that right?
(12:10:50 PM) rsinger: edsu: that is the sort of thing i'd like to work on, yeah
(12:10:55 PM) edsu: rsinger++
(12:11:06 PM) edsu: rsinger: so i'll focus on making the crawled data available
(12:11:20 PM) edsu: rsinger: and the little view that lists attendees
(12:11:32 PM) edsu: rsinger: would that work?
(12:11:53 PM) edsu: rsinger: we can try it out next week, as some of us add the attended assertion to our foafs
(12:12:09 PM) jrochkind: There seriously seems to be no way to get MS Communicator to STOP automatically starting up on XP.
(12:12:17 PM) rsinger: edsu: well, wait
(12:12:18 PM) catapanoth: Speaking of SPARQL, maybe it should be a topic in the am?
(12:12:41 PM) mjgiarlo: if some folks can edit the PM stuff on the wiki, that'd be swell. I will post today's log later on. (Not that we're done, but yeah.)
(12:13:00 PM) edsu: mjgiarlo++
(12:13:36 PM) ***lbjay thinks SPARQL is a Day 2 topic
(12:13:49 PM) rsinger: edsu: what did i just agree to?
(12:13:54 PM) edsu: heheh
(12:13:57 PM) ***charper agrees w/ lbjay
(12:14:11 PM) MrDys is now known as MrDys_lunch
(12:14:14 PM) edsu: building something useful given a URI to pull the foaf-data from
(12:14:19 PM) charper: SPARQL just doesn't fit in the allotted time, though I suspect it will get a mention or 3.
(12:14:32 PM) catapanoth: OK. SPARQL in the PM then.
(12:14:33 PM) edsu: edsu: which you can do the day of if you want
(12:14:35 PM) jrochkind: rsinger re ar-jdbc/h2, I get it, thanks. ar-jdbc has _something_ to do with jruby of course. :)
(12:14:38 PM) edsu: s/edsu/rsinger/
(12:15:02 PM) charper: edsu: I talk to myself a lot too.
(12:15:03 PM) edsu: rsinger: but i'm personally skeptical that it's possible to hack something pretty like that eswc site in a few hours
(12:15:13 PM) mjgiarlo: can have SPARQL (or other topics that get displaced?) be a breakout session on days 2-4.
(12:15:15 PM) rsinger: edsu: i agree
(12:15:36 PM) rsinger: edsu: all i'm saying is take the data and aggregating it
(12:15:49 PM) rsinger: for people to crawl
(12:15:54 PM) rsinger: and make pretty things like that
(12:16:03 PM) charper: edsu: Isn't that all the ESWC page does anyway?
(12:16:07 PM) edsu: rsinger: i'm offering to provide one crawled view
(12:16:16 PM) charper: It's basically a list of links to rdf files, right?
(12:16:21 PM) catapanoth: mjgiarlo: breakouts for the overflow is a good idea
(12:16:25 PM) rsinger: edsu: yeah, that's all i'm asking :)
(12:16:37 PM) rsinger: edsu: and i'll help provide the starting point
(12:17:08 PM) edsu: well i was thinking of using mjg, iand, mine, others foaf files as the seed
(12:17:17 PM) edsu: the conference already has a URI
(12:17:29 PM) edsu: so it doesn't need a "starting point"
(12:17:44 PM) rsinger: ok
(12:17:45 PM) ***mjgiarlo adds breakouts idea to wiki
(12:17:51 PM) edsu: unless i'm missing something
(12:17:54 PM) rsinger: why don't i just show up and learn something
(12:18:10 PM) charper: edsu: when my office is put back together on Tue or Wed I'll send you my foaf uri.
(12:18:20 PM) edsu: charper: cool
(12:18:51 PM) edsu: if all the organizers could get a foaf uri before the pre-conf i think we will be in good shape
(12:19:36 PM) edsu: rsinger: ahh i get it now ... sorry, i'm slow
(12:19:50 PM) dbs: follow up with a code4lod conference where people worked on lod-enabling common library apps, that would be pretty cool. I think.
(12:19:58 PM) edsu: rsinger: you really do want something to do :)
(12:20:31 PM) edsu: dbs: i was kind of hoping that was what the afternoon was going to be (in the beginning)
(12:20:40 PM) charper: code4lod++
(12:20:55 PM) edsu: dbs: "I've got this webapp, how do i make data available from it using this shit?"
(12:21:12 PM) lbjay: mjgiarlo: do we want to break up the Resources section of the wiki into "Handout materials" vs. the rest
(12:21:19 PM) dbs: edsu: yeah, but the PM hours will disappear very quickly
(12:21:26 PM) edsu: but i think what catapanoth suggested, re doing the publishing right, will get to that
(12:21:28 PM) eby_: open_shit++
(12:21:34 PM) dbs: as the call of beer grows harder to resist
(12:21:38 PM) charper: dbs: by this summer, RDF will be in testing, a lot of stuff will be in Daine/Jon's registry, XC might have some of their toolkits out....
(12:21:45 PM) rsinger: edsu: yeah, i was just thinking of how to represent the preconf as lod
(12:21:45 PM) charper: s/RDF/RDA
(12:22:06 PM) edsu: rsinger: but i guess i stole your idea?
(12:22:28 PM) dbs: charper: we'll be living in an Evergreen fairyland by then, and might be able to do more interesting things than just focusing on migration :)
(12:22:38 PM) edsu: rsinger: actually i think you can go about it your way
(12:22:44 PM) catapanoth: must go. thanks for all the effort put into this. the preconf will be fun, i'm sure.
(12:22:47 PM) mjgiarlo: lbjay: makes sense to break it up, why not?
(12:22:56 PM) mjgiarlo: lbjay: handout vs. bibliography?
(12:23:03 PM) edsu: rsinger: however it is, and i can do it my way (crawling foafs), and jay can go about it his way with sem media wiki
(12:23:07 PM) lbjay: mjgiarlo: right. i can do that.
(12:23:11 PM) rsinger: edsu: if we split up into 'producers' and 'consumers'... why not?
(12:23:38 PM) rsinger: i just think we have a small window of opportunity to prove that this shit is useful
(12:23:39 PM) edsu: and maybe jay dateman can go about it his way with drupal?
(12:23:44 PM) lbjay: someone remind me, did we want "Cool URIs for Sem Web" or "Cool URIs Don't Change"?
(12:23:47 PM) edsu: datema
(12:23:57 PM) charper: lbjay: for SemWeb
(12:24:00 PM) edsu: i was thinking the former
(12:24:05 PM) lbjay: righto
(12:24:21 PM) edsu: rsinger: well everyone will be a producer of some kind if we can get them to do a foaf profile
(12:24:21 PM) mjgiarlo: former
(12:25:00 PM) rsinger: edsu: but i was thinking of something a little more heterogeneous
(12:25:08 PM) edsu: rsinger: like what?
(12:25:22 PM) rsinger: edsu: more than FOAF on FOAF action
(12:25:36 PM) edsu: rsinger: well if people FOAF -> dbpedia, freebase
(12:25:40 PM) edsu: in their interests etc
(12:25:48 PM) edsu: that'll be more than foaf right?
(12:25:50 PM) charper: re: bibliography, you folks see the recent W3C:TAG finding on self-describing web?
(12:26:03 PM) edsu: yes, that's a good one to add i think
(12:26:17 PM) charper: http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/selfDescribingDocuments.html
(12:26:25 PM) rsinger: ok
(12:27:08 PM) edsu: charper: i really like this doc, because it's very holistic
(12:27:30 PM) charper: edsu: I know - I liked that it covered the non-RDF approaches, particularly the MicroFormats world.
(12:27:49 PM) edsu: and atom
(12:28:06 PM) charper: Sort of presents a path from URIs through XML, Atom, Microformats, to RDF & RDFa, GRDDL etc.
(12:28:17 PM) edsu: aye
(12:28:23 PM) charper: All tie together, and I like the notion of recursive self description.
(12:28:45 PM) mjgiarlo: maybe we can just hand that out and go to the pub.
(12:29:03 PM) charper: pub4lod?
(12:29:34 PM) edsu: ties in well with fielding's Hypermedia as the Engine of Application State