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Talk:LinkedData

49,258 bytes added, 15:58, 18 February 2009

→‎February 13th #code4lib planning meeting

== February 13th #code4lib planning meeting ==

~~Log forthcoming~~(10:06:15 AM) ***MrDys rings the 10am bell (10:07:51 AM) mjgiarlo has changed the topic to: Welcome to code4lib!(http://code4lib.org) -- code4lib 2009 linkeddata preconf planning (10:11:24 AM) edsu: mjgiarlo: sorry, train had hiccup prevented me from getting here on time (10:16:54 AM) edsu: so uh, is anyone here for this linked-data preconf thing? (10:17:01 AM) lbjay: edsu: present (10:17:05 AM) rsinger: edsu: here (10:17:09 AM) jdatema: here (10:17:10 AM) charper: edsu: me too. (10:17:17 AM) edsu: rawk (10:17:23 AM) ***MrDys raises his hand (10:17:32 AM) dlovins: present (10:17:52 AM) edsu: dlovins, MrDys hey, welcome :) (10:17:59 AM) mjgiarlo: edsu: ain't no thang, I'm trying to do too many things at once. (10:18:35 AM) edsu: so, before we start talking abuot the afternoon session, should we just see if there's anything else we want to talk about for the AM? (10:18:58 AM) charper: edsu: We should chat about how to squeeze dchud in without disrupting timeline. (10:19:04 AM) edsu: how do people feel about the am schedule? http://wiki.code4lib.org/index.php/LinkedData#02.2F23_AM_Tutorial.2C_Attendees:_48 (10:19:06 AM) charper: I'm happy to cut my talk short to make space for him. (10:19:10 AM) edsu: charper: good memory, yeah (10:19:27 AM) edsu: charper: how about we just cut into the q&a? (10:19:47 AM) ***lbjay would also be happy to go for less time (10:20:08 AM) MrDys: I kinda feel like q&a will happen as it goes on and doesn't really need a dedicated slot at the end (10:20:33 AM) charper: edsu: just keep in mind that my having a full half hour is dangerous - might end up delving into DCAM at some stage, and no one wants that. (10:20:48 AM) rsinger: no, we do (10:20:56 AM) edsu: yeah, I do too (10:20:59 AM) rsinger: charper: i mean, that's exactly what i want, anywya (10:21:03 AM) lbjay: edsu: seriously. give dchud 15 of my minutes (10:21:10 AM) edsu: charper: i want you to have enough time to get into something (10:21:26 AM) edsu: lbjay: ok, charper are you ok with that? (10:21:37 AM) ***lbjay is uncomfortable with the idea of taking more time than others who are probably way more qualified to talk about this stuff (10:21:42 AM) edsu: i have a hunch dchud is going to want to talk about his light-weight-linked-data (aka no rdf) (10:22:15 AM) charper: okay - that works out well for me. (10:22:16 AM) edsu: where should we slot in dchud? (10:22:30 AM) rsinger: probably at the end (10:22:34 AM) edsu: if we shorten lbjay's piece ? (10:22:51 AM) edsu: i think what dchud has to say might work well after corey maybe (10:22:54 AM) rsinger: hrm (10:23:09 AM) jdatema: or just before (10:23:12 AM) charper: edsu: I was thinking that too, or maybe after iand (10:23:13 AM) rsinger: i think the vocab selection thing is so important (10:23:23 AM) charper: rsinger: i definitely agree. (10:23:24 AM) edsu: since i think he's going to anchor it in what libraries could be doing with linked data (10:23:35 AM) rsinger: ah (10:23:50 AM) charper: edsu: he being dchud? (10:23:54 AM) edsu: vocab selection, openvocab and registries will all be about finding using vocabs (10:24:00 AM) rsinger: i thought it was gonna be all "don't sell me your rdf" (10:24:04 AM) ***jbrinley votes for a 90 second dchud interlude after each presentation (10:24:26 AM) edsu: rsinger: if he does that's ok -- i think he wants to talk about stuff from his blog post (10:24:43 AM) jbrinley: perhaps call it a rebuttal (10:24:46 AM) edsu: -> http://onebiglibrary.net/story/caching-and-proxying-linked-data (10:24:50 AM) lbjay: zoia++ (10:24:53 AM) rsinger: edsu: ah, yes (10:25:07 AM) edsu: i think dchud, hopefully, can articulate more about the 'so what can i do with this' (10:25:07 AM) charper: edsu: if that's the case, it's a really important thing to cover. (10:25:34 AM) edsu: rsinger: i'm just guessing though (10:25:41 AM) charper: Given that that was just on the edges of a topic on the public-lod w3c list... (10:25:52 AM) rsinger: edsu: i guess it would be helpful to know exactly what he wants to do (10:25:54 AM) edsu: charper: yeah, the link rot one/ (10:26:16 AM) rsinger: because if it's all "this is great and all... but what if..." (10:26:37 AM) rsinger: then i think it's best to come at the end when people have their heads around the environment (10:26:37 AM) edsu: rsinger: yeah, true (10:27:28 AM) charper: rsinger: he could serve as intro to the breakouts in the afternoon. (10:27:39 AM) rsinger: IF that's what he wants to talk about (10:27:45 AM) mjgiarlo: I agree re: having dchud be the closer. (10:27:59 AM) rsinger: it's too vague right now (10:28:17 AM) edsu: lets give him the benefit of the doubt, and ask him on the linked-preconf discussion list (10:28:41 AM) rsinger: +1 (10:28:47 AM) mjgiarlo: so for now, no changes to AM schedule. works for me. (10:29:05 AM) mjgiarlo: or was there agreement on killing the Q&A? or shortening lbjay's bit? (10:29:53 AM) edsu: ok, i'm going to edit the schedule, one sec (10:36:16 AM) mjgiarlo: edsu: "why the web?" == dchud's bit? (10:36:41 AM) edsu: mjgiarlo: yeah, maybe you could change it? i tried to summarize his blog post with a pithy 3 worder (10:39:12 AM) mjgiarlo: my only question about putting dchud and a break right after charper is that I thought we talked about keeping charper, anders, and edsu in a little block. (10:44:13 AM) edsu: mjgiarlo: i thought i put dchud after charper, before the break? (10:44:37 AM) edsu: http://wiki.code4lib.org/index.php/LinkedData#02.2F23_AM_Tutorial.2C_Attendees:_48 (10:44:58 AM) mjgiarlo: right, but I thought there was talk of keeping charper, then anders, then edsu in a block? now we've got dchud and a break in there. (10:45:08 AM) mjgiarlo: catapanoth: hey terry! (10:45:13 AM) catapanoth: hey mike (10:45:25 AM) edsu: catapanoth: glad you could make it (10:45:27 AM) catapanoth: OK. Already started. (10:45:31 AM) edsu: (heheh) (10:45:44 AM) catapanoth: me too. (10:46:32 AM) edsu: mjgiarlo: so yeah i guess we could push me and anders before the break? (10:46:46 AM) edsu: mjgiarlo: keep the pace up? it's just an extra 1/2 hour i guess? (10:46:59 AM) charper: mjgiarlo: Is the reason for grouping edsu, anders and I to focus on the authorities stuff? (10:47:08 AM) mjgiarlo: charper: I believe that was it, yes, thanks. :) (10:47:10 AM) edsu: dchud is a good speaker, so i think including him early when the caffeine is still in effect is good (10:47:10 AM) charper: I could break my talk up into 2 15 min segments too. (10:47:24 AM) mjgiarlo: edsu: Yeah, good point. (10:47:37 AM) mjgiarlo: and I do like that the break comes a bit earlier now. (10:48:59 AM) bfrederi: got here a little late. (10:49:08 AM) edsu: no problem, we all kinda started late (10:49:11 AM) mjgiarlo: well, let's leave the schedule as is and see what dchud wants to do, and move on to the nebulous PM session. we can finalize that next Friday or on the mailing list? (10:49:23 AM) edsu: bfrederi: we're just reviewing the am schedule http://wiki.code4lib.org/index.php/LinkedData#02.2F23_AM_Tutorial.2C_Attendees:_48 (10:49:44 AM) rsinger: yeah, w/o knowing what dchud actually wants to say, i think it's hard to schedule him (10:50:30 AM) edsu: rsinger: are you ok w/ him where he is now ... and we can adjust later when we here what he's going to talk about? (10:50:42 AM) rsinger: i don't care where he goes, i guess (10:50:48 AM) edsu: rsinger: if it's going to be fuck-that-rdf, then maybe put him later in the day? (10:51:01 AM) edsu: rsinger: but i don't think that's what he wants to talk about (10:51:27 AM) rsinger: it just seems like if he's going to be asking tough questions about the 'web as platform' then it makes sense for people to be most informed going into it (10:51:45 AM) rsinger: and i don't mean 'critical' questions (10:52:04 AM) charper: There are good practical tough questions to be asked. (10:52:20 AM) edsu: rsinger: ok, so you are still leaning towards the end of the day then? (10:52:27 AM) charper: I'd agree that if he's talking about things from his post, it's very practically oriented, and should set up the breakouts. (10:52:30 AM) rsinger: but dchud's at his best if people are at their smartest (10:52:51 AM) rsinger: edsu: end of day? or end of morning? (10:53:06 AM) mjgiarlo: end_of_AM++ (10:53:22 AM) jdatema: point of his post seemed to be about the need for caching (even P2P distribution), which sets up practical questions (10:53:31 AM) mjgiarlo: btw, the dchud post we're talking about is the "proxying and caching" one? (10:53:33 AM) jdatema: end_of_AM++ (10:53:56 AM) mjgiarlo: I'm already in there, BREAKING ALL YOUR GOOD WORK (10:55:15 AM) mjgiarlo: k, new proposal is up. (10:55:39 AM) edsu: mjgiarlo: right on (10:56:03 AM) mjgiarlo: on to PM planning? (10:56:06 AM) edsu: so any more questions/concerns about the morning? (10:56:18 AM) edsu: i have one more thing i'd like to float (10:56:27 AM) rsinger: ok (10:57:08 AM) edsu: i was wondering if it made sense to give out some printouts of key documentation for people to have (10:57:25 AM) rsinger: i think this is really good idea... but... what? (10:57:29 AM) mjgiarlo: the four tenets/principles/whatevers? (10:57:29 AM) lbjay: edsu: that was something i considered volunteering for (10:57:34 AM) edsu: cool uris for the semantic web, how to pubish linked data (10:57:41 AM) rsinger: but printed out? (10:57:49 AM) edsu: mjgiarlo: yeah, that too (10:57:53 AM) lbjay: edsu: i can do it. and bind them even. (10:57:54 AM) mjgiarlo: Would be good reading for flights home. (10:58:04 AM) edsu: lbjay: are you serious? (10:58:11 AM) jbrinley: edsu: if it's something we'll need for reference during the pre-conf, yes. if it's not, and it's available online, just give us URLs (10:58:21 AM) ***lbjay loves a chance to fire up the CombiBind apparatus (10:58:27 AM) mjgiarlo: I like the idea of sticking paper in their hands. (10:58:28 AM) edsu: jbrinley: i dunno, it might come in handy during the afternoon (10:58:34 AM) edsu: jbrinley: not so much for the AM (10:58:37 AM) ***lbjay likes handouts (10:58:50 AM) ***edsu does too (10:58:59 AM) mjgiarlo: It's easier to dismiss one URL among the hundreds they will acquire over the course of the conf. (10:59:03 AM) edsu: if it's just a url, it's easy to ignore (10:59:05 AM) catapanoth: the cool uri's doc is pretty short, and would be good to have in hand (10:59:18 AM) edsu: catapanoth: aye (10:59:24 AM) catapanoth: perhaps encourage people to print it out and bring it? (10:59:34 AM) lbjay: so lets settle on a list of materials i guess (10:59:39 AM) mjgiarlo: put paper in their hands and they can refer back to it, keep it at their desks, etc. (10:59:41 AM) ***jbrinley has a good filing system for URL (i.e., delicious), not so much for paper (10:59:44 AM) edsu: well if lbjay can do it, i'd like to have them to give out (10:59:47 AM) edsu: lbjay: can you really do it? (10:59:49 AM) lbjay: something that adds up to < 50 pages i'm hoping (10:59:53 AM) rsinger: i don't mind packets, i would discourage "volumes" (10:59:54 AM) lbjay: edsu: yup (11:00:02 AM) edsu: lbjay: yeah, should be less than 50 for sure (11:00:12 AM) rsinger: < 20, i would hope (11:00:20 AM) mjgiarlo: the two edsu mentioned are really key. (11:00:33 AM) ***rsinger "books" (11:00:45 AM) mjgiarlo: and probably subsume the four tenets thang. (11:00:45 AM) ***rsinger feigns horror. (11:01:00 AM) edsu: i like the four tenets one too, it's short (11:01:03 AM) mjgiarlo: so +1 to cool_uris and how_to_publish (11:01:05 AM) edsu: and it could be the first doc (11:01:10 AM) mjgiarlo: true 'nuff (11:01:17 AM) edsu: it's where it all started after all (11:01:58 AM) edsu: lbjay: so less than 50 pages, and 50 copies? (11:02:08 AM) lbjay: yep (11:02:30 AM) lbjay: ~20-30 would be great (11:02:43 AM) charper: The how to doc hits almost 50p on it's own. (11:02:51 AM) edsu: charper: oh it does? (11:02:52 AM) charper: cool uris is much shorter. (11:02:55 AM) lbjay: maybe one page could be a bibliography of stuff that doesn't make the cut (11:03:08 AM) charper: edsu: according to print preview. (11:03:13 AM) edsu: hmm ok (11:03:20 AM) rsinger: charper: the lod how to? (11:03:24 AM) lbjay: charper: really? (11:03:25 AM) edsu: but that would be 25 double sided (11:03:29 AM) mjgiarlo: +1 to bibliography page (11:03:34 AM) lbjay: right, double sided fo sho (11:03:42 AM) rsinger: yeah, totally +1 to bibliography (11:03:46 AM) rsinger: In bibo (11:03:54 AM) rsinger: lbjay: your printer does bibo, right? (11:03:57 AM) edsu: rsinger: hahaha, that would be awesome (11:04:12 AM) edsu: we could print out the bibliography in turtle tho (11:04:22 AM) lbjay: ha +1 (11:04:27 AM) rsinger: awesome (11:04:43 AM) charper: rsinger: that would be too good. (11:04:56 AM) edsu: anyhow, so it sounds like this is an option, i'll work on the bibliography on the wiki, and lbjay you can figure out what we can fit in? (11:04:59 AM) lbjay: there were four things i read over the summer that were responsible for my aha moment. trying to remember what the other two were. (11:05:05 AM) lbjay: edsu: yep (11:05:09 AM) charper: Only other doc I can think of that's pretty central is TBL's original design note that started this whole "Linked data" thing. (11:05:09 AM) charper: http://www.w3.org/DesignIssues/LinkedData.html (11:05:12 AM) edsu: lbjay: cool, lets try to remember those 4 (11:05:29 AM) catapanoth: +1 on the design issues doc. (11:05:38 AM) lbjay: charper: that was one (11:05:49 AM) edsu: yeah, that was the 4 tennant's we were talking about earlier, cryptically (11:06:01 AM) lbjay: maybe one or two of the important w3 docs too... (11:06:52 AM) rsinger: http://research.talis.com/2005/rdf-intro/ (11:07:51 AM) lbjay: http://delicious.com/tag/linkeddata+tutorial is like a broken record (11:07:56 AM) charper: rsinger: don't think I've looked at that Talis intro before - good stuff. Love Homer eating the SemWeb Stack. (11:08:34 AM) rsinger: charper: that was my a ha moment (11:08:41 AM) lbjay: no slides please. need to keep data:ink ratio high (11:08:56 AM) rsinger: lbjay: no, that's for the bibliography (11:09:10 AM) edsu: http://www.w3.org/History/1989/proposal.html :-) (11:09:27 AM) lbjay: well, if they were really good slides i guess (11:09:35 AM) charper: edsu++ (11:09:48 AM) charper: Add a photocopy of the first 10 pages of "Weaving the Web". (11:09:56 AM) rsinger: lbjay: no, really, i just mean for the bibliography (11:10:31 AM) lbjay: rsinger: i know. just now thinking a couple of figures/images wouldn't hurt (11:10:42 AM) edsu: ok so we all agree (i guess) that giving out some little packet is a good idea, we can continue to discuss on the linked-data preconf list? (11:10:57 AM) charper: Just the homer slide, for levity and to hammer home the point.... (11:11:19 AM) charper: Ties to that design issues note, and Martin's quote from the Talis podcast about SemWeb folks focusing on the Sem and forgetting about the Web. (11:11:21 AM) lbjay: edsu: i think it's key. having something tangible to take away and review is always a + for me (11:12:03 AM) mjgiarlo: edsu: +1 (11:12:03 AM) MrDys: cuts down on spending the entire time copying URLs and notetaking (11:12:07 AM) MrDys: so +1 from me (11:12:28 AM) edsu: lbjay: you don't need $$ (again)? (11:12:36 AM) jdatema: +1 for handout (11:12:45 AM) edsu: lbjay: you have magic book reprap machine or something? (11:13:08 AM) lbjay: edsu: yep, here at work. consider it "sponsorship" by EL (11:13:14 AM) edsu: lbjay: sweet (11:13:23 AM) mjgiarlo: lbjay++ # excellent. (11:13:51 AM) charper: lbjay: Thanks for that. (11:14:00 AM) edsu: lbjay++ (11:14:14 AM) edsu: ok, so anything else about the AM we want to talk about, before diving into the pm? (11:14:26 AM) charper: pm scary... (11:14:31 AM) ***charper shudders (11:14:55 AM) rsinger: edsu: i don't think so (11:15:07 AM) edsu: cool, so how do we even start thinking about the PM? (11:16:01 AM) charper: edsu: still conceptualized as hands-on breakout sessions? (11:16:23 AM) edsu: charper: in my mind, yes, with some time at the end to regroup (11:16:27 AM) rsinger: i promise i will keep from promoting my concept (11:16:34 AM) edsu: charper: i guess there were some people not signed up for the AM who are in the PM though (11:17:06 AM) edsu: rsinger: what was that concept again? (11:17:13 AM) charper: edsu: That could still be okay. (11:17:16 AM) rsinger: no (11:17:20 AM) rsinger: i said i wouldn't (11:17:25 AM) mjgiarlo: Could use the last half-hour of the AM session to drive the PM session, though we should still prepare now and next week. Maybe we could put some feelers out on list? (11:17:32 AM) edsu: talking about it isn't necessarily promoting it :) (11:17:47 AM) edsu: mjgiarlo: i like that idea (11:18:12 AM) charper: edsu: rsingers proposal was the idea of representing the preconf as LOD if I remember. (11:18:19 AM) charper: Which I liked. (11:18:20 AM) edsu: i think part of the success of the PM will be staying flexible to accomodate where the interest is (11:18:39 AM) edsu: i'd still like to encourage people to create a foaf for themself (11:18:48 AM) rsinger: yes, that's part of my idea (11:18:50 AM) edsu: and publish it somewhere (11:19:04 AM) eby_: c4l09: go foaf yourself (11:19:14 AM) mjgiarlo: eby_++ (11:19:47 AM) eby_: coffee++ (11:19:50 AM) rsinger: rsinger foaf:knows <dick@cheney.com> (11:19:57 AM) ***edsu adds "go foaf yourself" (11:19:57 AM) ***mjgiarlo added that to the wiki (11:20:01 AM) catapanoth: I'd like to see some in-depth discussion of implementation: say designing and setting up all that HTTP 303 crap (11:20:14 AM) edsu: mjgiarlo: whoops :) (11:20:22 AM) mjgiarlo: edsu: just added to "possible outcomes" but feel free to shift (11:20:55 AM) edsu: mjgiarlo: k, i removed mine :) (11:21:12 AM) edsu: catapanoth: right on, that's a good one too (11:21:23 AM) catapanoth: and on the other end, actual examples of processing rdf: what libraries exist in different languages, lessons learned, etc... (11:21:37 AM) edsu: catapanoth: one of the authors of the http://www.w3.org/TR/swbp-vocab-pub/ is going to be there (11:21:43 AM) edsu: catapanoth: jonphipps (11:21:50 AM) catapanoth: nice. (11:21:56 AM) mjgiarlo: catapanoth++ # great ideas (11:22:07 AM) edsu: mjgiarlo: you adding it? (11:22:21 AM) mjgiarlo: sher. (11:22:45 AM) edsu: add it above the possible outcomes if you can (11:23:12 AM) catapanoth: someone also mentioned earlier a recommendation system based on measuring distance in graphs, love to hear more about that. (11:23:32 AM) edsu: the crafty rob sanderson (azaroth) (11:23:39 AM) edsu: who (alas) won't be there (11:24:07 AM) mjgiarlo: edsu: add to session topics, you mean? (11:24:12 AM) edsu: yea? (11:24:29 AM) edsu: i like the idea of a Go FOAF Yerself session too honestly (11:24:47 AM) mjgiarlo: k, 's what I did. (though I put it at the top, but the order there shouldn't matter (yet)) (11:25:03 AM) edsu: yeah, they were mostly be parallel anyhow (11:25:20 AM) catapanoth: yes, I think the go FOAF is a great idea. (11:25:32 AM) rsinger: basically i think we should just have go foaf yourself, some aggregation via a representation of the pre-conf and then build a few demo consumers (11:25:45 AM) ***lbjay likes it (11:25:45 AM) edsu: how about people that want to talk about processing rdf graphs with their favorite language? (11:26:12 AM) mjgiarlo: and focus on the practical angles catapanoth suggsted: tools for consuming, and options for how to implement all the http/conneg/etc. stuff. (11:26:38 AM) catapanoth: + on processing graphs (11:26:39 AM) edsu: so there's two main angles (11:26:45 AM) mjgiarlo: sounds like the PM session is going more unconf/hackfest style, which I would dig. (11:26:53 AM) edsu: publishing and consuming (11:27:02 AM) lbjay: edsu: are you talking concurrent tracks or sequential? (11:27:11 AM) edsu: mjgiarlo: yeah, i like it too, most people will be burnt anyhow (11:27:18 AM) mjgiarlo: I think we're talking concurrent, lbjay (11:27:50 AM) edsu: lbjay: i was thinking concurrent (11:28:03 AM) lbjay: so some folks will skip the foaf creation (11:28:08 AM) rsinger: how about two blocks? (11:28:17 AM) rsinger: of concurrent groups? (11:28:21 AM) lbjay: safe to assume several will already have a foaf file (11:28:26 AM) rsinger: yeah (11:28:36 AM) edsu: i'm afraid that some people will generate the foaf, and maybe use it, and see it aggregated, but come away without seeing how much data there is out there already (11:28:41 AM) rsinger: it's also safe to assume that it won't take the whole hour and a half to create one (11:28:57 AM) lbjay: rsinger: right (11:29:23 AM) charper: people could also jump between sessions. (11:29:35 AM) rsinger: well that depends (11:29:36 AM) charper: Say we split into these, one on aggregation, one on publishing. (11:29:38 AM) edsu: yeah, i think people should be encourage to float, and even leave (11:29:41 AM) edsu: if they get bored (11:29:47 AM) lbjay: GTFO (11:29:52 AM) edsu: and to create new groups as needed (11:29:54 AM) charper: The publishers finish there stuff, and that puts the aggregators in a position to do something with it. (11:29:57 AM) rsinger: right, but if it takes, say, 45 minutes to build your foaf (11:30:17 AM) rsinger: and you go to the python rdf graph processors (11:30:44 AM) edsu: i was thinking of suggesting to people to build a foaf file right at the beginning of the day (11:30:46 AM) rsinger: and they've already gone over what it is how to use and are just trying apply it towards existing content (11:30:48 AM) edsu: to get in on the book raffle (11:30:48 AM) lbjay: do we also assume they will have a place to stick their foaf? or should we figure out foaf hosting? (11:31:06 AM) edsu: so people could hack around at creating a foaf when they get bored during the AM (11:31:06 AM) catapanoth: there's a book raffle? (11:31:09 AM) lbjay: ooh, right. book raffle is the carrot (11:31:54 AM) rsinger: what if i don't get bored? (11:31:55 AM) edsu: catapanoth: yeah, nothing stunning but -- http://www.flickr.com/photos/inkdroid/3251002290/in/set-72157613284027719/ (11:32:03 AM) mjgiarlo: rsinger: then you're not trying hard enough. (11:32:09 AM) edsu: rsinger: then you can work on it in the afternoon? (11:32:14 AM) rsinger: plus i figure some people are going to need guidance, i would think (11:32:15 AM) catapanoth: i like books (11:32:19 AM) edsu: rsinger: in the Get FOAFed session? (11:32:30 AM) rsinger: edsu: yeah (11:32:34 AM) edsu: rsinger: yeah, definitely (11:32:39 AM) gsf: can we just assume the half that know foaf can help the other half? (11:32:57 AM) edsu: gsf: i'm hoping yes (11:32:58 AM) lbjay: can we not have distracting spinoff sessions in the am? (11:33:01 AM) rsinger: i think we have a bit of a conflict of scope (11:33:10 AM) charper: rsinger: how so? (11:33:13 AM) edsu: and there are foaf creators on the web people can use if need be (11:34:04 AM) rsinger: charper: well, i'm a little worried that the afternoon is getting a little more advanced than our target audience (11:34:39 AM) gsf: lbjay: as i read it, edsu's not calling for spinoff sessions, just individual hacking during the am (11:34:44 AM) gsf: lbjay: which can't be stopped (11:35:50 AM) mjgiarlo: I think it's worth mentioning the FOAF stuff in the first talk of the AM, but I agree with lbjay that maybe we shouldn't encourage that. (11:35:53 AM) charper: rsinger: doesn't the concurrency help with that? (11:36:14 AM) charper: rsinger: some folks doing a bit more advanced things if they're really chomping at the bit to work with something existing? (11:36:24 AM) rsinger: charper: yes, but that's why i think it's important to organize that a little better (11:36:47 AM) rsinger: charper: because it's the advanced people that are going to have to show the beginners how to do these things (11:37:02 AM) lbjay: mjgiarlo: right. "In the PM we'll be working with everyone to create a FOAF file. If you're bored and want to do your earlier have at it (but don't bug us with questions)" (11:37:12 AM) rsinger: basically, i think the beginners are the ones to set the pace of the PM (11:37:20 AM) mjgiarlo: lbjay++ # works for me (11:37:53 AM) azaroth: catapanoth: The idea was that you can measure the total distance between subjects in terms of the graph across all pairings (11:38:02 AM) lbjay: can i just say, i think we're overestimating the possibility of boredom (11:38:10 AM) edsu: rsinger: good point (11:38:40 AM) lbjay: i mean, we have at least one theatre major among the presenters (11:38:41 AM) edsu: lbjay: would you be ok with that, what you quoted? (11:38:53 AM) charper: So long as we're all in the same room, can't folks who have a foaf and know foaf both float/help and design work on consuming / aggregating apps? (11:38:55 AM) rsinger: i think blocking out a time for 'all hands on deck' for foafing yourself is going to have to be the way to go (11:38:56 AM) edsu: i wanted to make sure people who were only there for the am could win a book (11:38:58 AM) lbjay: edsu: yeah, sure (11:39:21 AM) rsinger: edsu: well, there's always the conference that we can hand it out (11:39:23 AM) edsu: rsinger: the first thing after lunch maybe? (11:39:28 AM) rsinger: edsu: yes, exactly (11:39:31 AM) edsu: rsinger++ (11:39:38 AM) mjgiarlo: charper: i'd be more than happy to do the foaf float. (11:39:38 AM) edsu: then we break up from there? (11:39:54 AM) lbjay: +1 (11:40:09 AM) rsinger: yes (11:40:38 AM) rsinger: how much? 30 mins? 45 mins? (11:40:40 AM) lbjay: 30-45 minutes, 1st thing after lunch (11:40:40 AM) charper: mjgiarlo: me too. (11:40:44 AM) edsu: i like the sounds of that myself (11:40:56 AM) edsu: catapanoth: what do you think? (11:41:05 AM) edsu: MrDys: ? (11:41:26 AM) charper: edsu: I like that too. (11:41:34 AM) charper: We've currently got: (11:41:35 AM) charper: 12:30 - 14:00 -- Lunch 14:00 - 16:00 -- Breakout Sessions 16:00 - 17:00 -- Regroup/Wrapup (11:41:41 AM) azaroth: catapanoth: Then build a recommender system based on clustering, using the distances between result sets (11:41:50 AM) charper: So, 14:00-14:30/45 would be FOAFing yourself. (11:41:52 AM) edsu: jbrinley: ? (11:41:53 AM) lbjay: i think that time frame is reasonable so long as obstacles, such as hosting, are removed (11:42:02 AM) edsu: catapanoth: k :) (11:42:08 AM) charper: That leaves ~hour for anything else - what to do with that, then....? (11:42:11 AM) jbrinley: edsu: ? (11:42:14 AM) rsinger: lbjay: well, there's always identi.ca (11:42:24 AM) lbjay: rsinger: was thinking that too (11:42:27 AM) MrDys: I'm open to that...I've always found FOAF incredibly dry and boring, but if it can be shown that it's not then, please, open my eyes (11:42:29 AM) edsu: jbrinley: just wondering if you are following the initial plan for the pm and if it makes sense for you (11:42:58 AM) jbrinley: edsu: haven't been paying much attention, sorry (11:43:14 AM) lbjay: MrDys: i would say lacking in gravitas, but not dry or boring (11:43:43 AM) rsinger: MrDys: yeah, definitely the outcome is that we want to show the potential of creating data like that (11:43:51 AM) MrDys: I guess my interest would be in seeing how FOAF can be used, rather than sitting down and hacking out a FOAF profile (11:44:15 AM) charper: rsinger: but how do we do that without invoking the PM-scope problem you mentioned before? (11:44:16 AM) lbjay: MrDys: exactly, but don't you need a FOAF file first? (11:44:40 AM) MrDys: lbjay: or you could use existing ones to demonstrate (11:44:51 AM) charper: Currently the afternoon topics list on wiki includes a bunch of working w/ rdf in [lang] (11:44:56 AM) charper: Are we scratching that? (11:45:02 AM) rsinger: no clue (11:45:11 AM) MrDys: I just think that the level of people at the preconf will know enough to hack out some valid XML (11:45:19 AM) lbjay: MrDys: or you could create some DOAP content instead and link it into our preconf graph somehow (11:45:52 AM) rsinger: charper: personally, i think the "working with rdf in [lang]" should have an end result planned (11:45:55 AM) rsinger: charper: and hack on that (11:45:57 AM) lbjay: MrDys: its not the xml. it's the uris and the mixing of vocabularies (11:45:57 AM) mjgiarlo: charper: I think that makes sense in the publishing/consuming examples catapanoth mentioned earlier. (11:45:59 AM) rsinger: charper: or a couple (11:46:02 AM) charper: lbjay: My question is, where will our preconf graph live, and is part of the afternoon looking at how to build something that actually uses that graph. (11:46:12 AM) ***lbjay looks at rsinger (11:46:16 AM) rsinger: ? (11:46:27 AM) MrDys: lbjay: sounds good then (11:46:33 AM) rsinger: so, the python "consumers" figure out the miles traveled to the preconf (11:46:57 AM) charper: rsinger: oh - I see. That makes sense. (11:46:57 AM) rsinger: and the php "consumers" figure out the blogworth (11:47:09 AM) rsinger: or... something (11:47:20 AM) rsinger: i'm just throwing out really /simple/ project ideas (11:47:33 AM) charper: rsinger: can we do that in the hour+ between foafing and wrap-up? (11:47:42 AM) rsinger: others can try to do something more complicated with it if they have the initiative (11:47:58 AM) rsinger: i would *think* so -- but not sure (11:48:02 AM) charper: Can we identify a few leads on those sessions? (11:48:11 AM) lbjay: charper: could we use a semanitic wiki to build the graph? (11:48:14 AM) charper: Someone on the PHP side who knows ARC2 well enough to play, etc. (11:48:33 AM) charper: lbjay: I was thinking the same thing - either Sem Media Wiki, or even Drupal w/ the RDF Module. (11:48:55 AM) mjgiarlo: we can always go until 4:30pm if we need extra hackin' time (11:49:12 AM) mjgiarlo: and shorten the regroup/wrapup (11:49:20 AM) edsu: sorry i got pulled away (11:49:21 AM) lbjay: charper: right. and use the conference vocab so that folks can link in their FOAFs/whatevers (11:49:39 AM) ***lbjay has misplaced the link to that conference vocab (11:50:44 AM) edsu: i got started on a little app for crawling foafs (11:50:49 AM) edsu: looking for conference attendees (11:50:58 AM) edsu: which i was going to put a crappy web front end on (11:51:09 AM) edsu: which could deliver the preconf graph (11:51:13 AM) edsu: at a URL (11:51:37 AM) edsu: the idea being that as the day went on and people got linked up, more people would appear on a page (11:52:00 AM) lbjay: edsu: how do the attendees link in their data? (11:52:07 AM) MrDys: edsu: I like that (11:52:15 AM) jrochkind1: Hmm. Windows XP, driving me crazy. (11:52:31 AM) charper: edsu: definitely good. Throw the growing graph on-screen between talks and during breaks.... (11:52:34 AM) edsu: lbjay: check out http://lackoftalent.org/michael/foaf.rdf#mjg and http://inkdroid.org/ehs.rdf (11:52:53 AM) eby_: rsinger: talis api service question (11:53:06 AM) edsu: basically just <http://inkdroid.org/ehs> swc:attendeeAt <http://code4lib.org/2009#conference> . (in your foaf profile) (11:53:07 AM) rsinger: eby_: i'll try to answer (11:53:26 AM) lbjay: edsu: right, but for your app to crawl and find them... (11:53:36 AM) edsu: lbjay: that's the tricky part (11:53:50 AM) lbjay: edsu: that's what i thought the semwiki would be good for (11:53:53 AM) eby_: rsinger: is the transform service limited to xml outputted from the talis store or can i feed it non-talis xml uri's (11:54:08 AM) rsinger: lbjay: http://www.eswc2006.org/rdf/ (11:54:09 AM) edsu: lbjay: people would add themself to the page? (11:54:21 AM) eby_: rsinger: http://www.talis.com/tdn/platform/reference/api/transform (11:54:34 AM) edsu: lbjay: as long as people are hooked up to someone else at the conference (11:54:36 AM) rsinger: eby_: you can feed it anything, i think (11:54:38 AM) lbjay: edsu: or... we could say to everyone... "OK, turn to your right. Add that person to your foaf as a foaf:knows" (11:54:40 AM) edsu: lbjay: via foaf:knows (11:54:48 AM) lbjay: edsu: right (11:55:01 AM) lbjay: that could be kinda cool actually (11:55:03 AM) edsu: lbjay: i think something like what i started at http://inkdroid.org/bzr/c4libbers/crawl.py can work (11:55:12 AM) mjgiarlo: edsu: should the object of that predicate be http://code4lib.org/2009#conference or http://code4lib.org/node/266#linked-data-preconf ? I guess it doesn't really matter? :) (11:55:29 AM) charper: edsu: both? (11:55:33 AM) edsu: mjgiarlo: yeah, could be both (11:55:37 AM) rsinger: eby_: yeah, you can feed it anything (11:55:48 AM) edsu: mjgiarlo: i see you did both, which is correct i think (11:55:51 AM) rsinger: eby_: you just need a URL for the XML and a URL for the XSLT (11:56:02 AM) eby_: rsinger: thanks (11:56:03 AM) edsu: mjgiarlo: but i was thinking (if it works) it could be used to give out books to *everyone* at the conference (11:56:03 AM) rsinger: eby_: and they need to be accessible via curl (11:56:27 AM) edsu: mjgiarlo: but i don't want to get ahead of myself (11:56:50 AM) ***mjgiarlo nods (11:56:56 AM) rsinger: i figured everyone would just write down their uri (11:56:59 AM) edsu: anyhow, lbjay i like your idea of using the semantic wiki (11:57:09 AM) rsinger: and one of the breakout groups would be to publish the preconf lod (11:57:18 AM) edsu: lbjay: do you feel like you could own that part of it? (11:57:30 AM) lbjay: i'm really liking the idea of asking each person to make FOAF friends with the person adjacent to them. to facilitate the crawling. (11:57:31 AM) rsinger: the semantic wiki, of course, would be an easier solution (11:57:42 AM) edsu: lbjay: and i'll try to get this crawler/data dumper working? (11:57:47 AM) lbjay: ok (11:57:48 AM) edsu: i think we should do both if we can (11:57:58 AM) edsu: semantic wiki in general is a really useful thing to cover (11:58:00 AM) lbjay: i'll own the semwiki part (11:58:10 AM) edsu: lbjay++ # rock (11:58:21 AM) ***lbjay has been meaning to try that out anywho (11:58:38 AM) edsu: yeah, i'd love to learn more about it too (11:58:43 AM) edsu: this is semantic media wiki right? (11:58:51 AM) lbjay: edsu: that was my intention (11:58:55 AM) edsu: nice (11:59:00 AM) charper: lbjay++ (11:59:05 AM) charper: (again) (11:59:36 AM) charper: lbjay: are you saying you could have a sort of a sandbox up somewhere? (11:59:48 AM) edsu: charper: how about that rochester data? (11:59:51 AM) mjgiarlo: folks who have a clearer idea of how the PM will be structured, feel free to capture that on the wiki. lots of distractions for me today. (11:59:54 AM) lbjay: charper: i guess that's what i'm saying ;) (12:00:03 PM) edsu: lbjay: do you need a machine to put it on? (12:00:12 PM) lbjay: edsu: i could use reallywow (12:00:18 PM) lbjay: edsu: other suggestions? (12:00:19 PM) edsu: lbjay++ (12:00:23 PM) charper: edsu: Do we still want to look into the pile-o-data thing, or is that getting ahead of ourselves? (12:00:24 PM) lbjay: ok, cool (12:00:38 PM) edsu: charper: well so the foaf data will be one pile of data (hopefully) (12:00:52 PM) edsu: but it might be nice to have a pile of library data (12:00:55 PM) edsu: to play with (12:00:59 PM) ***lbjay 's stomach growls (12:01:07 PM) charper: edsu: I'll ping Jennifer today. (12:01:10 PM) edsu: shoot, we are kind of out of time (12:01:12 PM) rsinger: hrm (12:01:23 PM) lbjay: @decide grinder or thai (12:01:24 PM) zoia: lbjay: go with thai (12:01:25 PM) edsu: also, i think it would be useful for people to see how much data is out there (12:01:34 PM) edsu: on the web, that library data could be linked to (12:01:40 PM) rsinger: is the rochester data 'out there', though? (12:01:43 PM) rsinger: ah (12:01:44 PM) edsu: the actual linking of data is the hard problem imho (12:02:01 PM) edsu: i don't think the rochester data is out there (12:02:17 PM) charper: rsinger: no, the rochester data isn't out there (yet). (12:02:24 PM) edsu: i wonder if mmmmmRob's rdf/openlibrary data is available (12:02:27 PM) rsinger: par for the course with them (12:02:39 PM) rsinger: edsu: i don't think so (12:02:46 PM) MrDys: what about the book data in freebase? (12:03:00 PM) edsu: yeah, i don't know if they make their rdf dumps available (12:03:03 PM) charper: This was part of why I started thinking Drupal - the XC folks have a whole Drupal toolkit planned. (12:03:09 PM) edsu: it's definitely crawlable from freebase (12:03:25 PM) rsinger: i guess i look at the PM as a very finite period of time (12:03:48 PM) edsu: rsinger: i think you are right to (12:04:00 PM) edsu: it'll blow by pretty quick (12:04:15 PM) rsinger: and i look back at our chicago sprint thing... where there was no clear intended outcome (12:04:15 PM) edsu: i'm really worried thought that people will miss the point that it's not just about FOAF (12:04:19 PM) rsinger: and nothing got done (12:04:41 PM) rsinger: because everything we could think of -- there was no way to do it one day (12:04:50 PM) edsu: yeah (12:05:07 PM) rsinger: edsu: that's why i think we need to build little apps that show how these things work in other ways (12:05:08 PM) bseitz left the room (quit: Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). (12:05:19 PM) rsinger: edsu: that the foaf is just a means to the end (12:05:24 PM) rsinger: edsu: and also a metaphor (12:05:32 PM) edsu: rsinger: so what do you don't think people putting a foaf together, seeing it automatically harvested, and (perhaps) visualized, and maybe winning a book is an outcome? (12:05:50 PM) anarchivist: charper: re: drupal - there's a NY semweb meetup during code4lib about rdf + drupal (12:05:58 PM) rsinger: edsu: i think that's a great outcome (12:06:23 PM) charper: anarchivist: I know - the timing's rough. Also, Brooklyn Poly's doing a drupal camp that includes an RDF session. (12:06:23 PM) edsu: talk more about the little apps idea (12:06:48 PM) rsinger: edsu: but i think throwing out some reasonably small 'visualization' ideas would help people get started (12:07:39 PM) rsinger: edsu: i think even something like "show the delegate's point of origin on exhibit' would be a good start (12:07:42 PM) edsu: any of you drupaler's played with the rdf stuff that they are cooking in? (12:08:06 PM) rsinger: edsu: although i like the side effect of actually trying to use that to calculate distance or carbon footprint or something (12:08:07 PM) anarchivist: edsu: the vocab import stuff could prove ueful (12:08:08 PM) jdatema: edsu: yeah (12:08:10 PM) edsu: would make for a nice afternoon session ... (12:08:22 PM) jdatema: put the NISO ISQ article in it (12:08:34 PM) jdatema: has a SPARQL endpoint (12:08:44 PM) jdatema: might be nice for demo (12:08:51 PM) charper: edsu: I'm just starting to play with drupal, and I'm getting kind of excited about it. (12:08:59 PM) edsu: woah, i didn't realize they were doing sparql, i thought it was mainly modifying templates to emit rdfa, and some vocab control (12:09:14 PM) charper: Maybe a parallel to lbjays Semantic Media Wiki session. (12:09:20 PM) lbjay: For anyone sticking around the area post-conf, i saw that Peter Suber is doing a talk on open access at the Berkman center on Friday (12:09:22 PM) edsu: charper: yes (12:09:28 PM) edsu: charper: they are very similar (12:09:48 PM) rsinger: i mean, i look at: http://www.eswc2006.org/rdf/ (12:09:56 PM) rsinger: and see a ton of possibilities of what to do with it (12:10:17 PM) mjgiarlo: eby_: the latest version has more helpful error output, 0.9.2, if you don't have that one yet. I hope that it gets promoted out of the sandbox soon so it can take advantage of automatic updates, but we'll see. (12:10:19 PM) jdatema: drupal RDF modules (http://drupal.org/node/222788) and SPARQL (http://drupal.org/project/sparql) (12:10:31 PM) edsu: rsinger: cool, so if i gave you a dump of the foaf data that was crawled somebody could build that right? (12:10:50 PM) rsinger: edsu: that is the sort of thing i'd like to work on, yeah (12:10:55 PM) edsu: rsinger++ (12:11:06 PM) edsu: rsinger: so i'll focus on making the crawled data available (12:11:20 PM) edsu: rsinger: and the little view that lists attendees (12:11:32 PM) edsu: rsinger: would that work? (12:11:53 PM) edsu: rsinger: we can try it out next week, as some of us add the attended assertion to our foafs (12:12:09 PM) jrochkind: There seriously seems to be no way to get MS Communicator to STOP automatically starting up on XP. (12:12:17 PM) rsinger: edsu: well, wait (12:12:18 PM) catapanoth: Speaking of SPARQL, maybe it should be a topic in the am? (12:12:41 PM) mjgiarlo: if some folks can edit the PM stuff on the wiki, that'd be swell. I will post today's log later on. (Not that we're done, but yeah.) (12:13:00 PM) edsu: mjgiarlo++ (12:13:36 PM) ***lbjay thinks SPARQL is a Day 2 topic (12:13:49 PM) rsinger: edsu: what did i just agree to? (12:13:54 PM) edsu: heheh (12:13:57 PM) ***charper agrees w/ lbjay (12:14:11 PM) MrDys is now known as MrDys_lunch (12:14:14 PM) edsu: building something useful given a URI to pull the foaf-data from (12:14:19 PM) charper: SPARQL just doesn't fit in the allotted time, though I suspect it will get a mention or 3. (12:14:32 PM) catapanoth: OK. SPARQL in the PM then. (12:14:33 PM) edsu: edsu: which you can do the day of if you want (12:14:35 PM) jrochkind: rsinger re ar-jdbc/h2, I get it, thanks. ar-jdbc has _something_ to do with jruby of course. :) (12:14:38 PM) edsu: s/edsu/rsinger/ (12:15:02 PM) charper: edsu: I talk to myself a lot too. (12:15:03 PM) edsu: rsinger: but i'm personally skeptical that it's possible to hack something pretty like that eswc site in a few hours (12:15:13 PM) mjgiarlo: can have SPARQL (or other topics that get displaced?) be a breakout session on days 2-4. (12:15:15 PM) rsinger: edsu: i agree (12:15:36 PM) rsinger: edsu: all i'm saying is take the data and aggregating it (12:15:49 PM) rsinger: for people to crawl (12:15:54 PM) rsinger: and make pretty things like that (12:16:03 PM) charper: edsu: Isn't that all the ESWC page does anyway? (12:16:07 PM) edsu: rsinger: i'm offering to provide one crawled view (12:16:16 PM) charper: It's basically a list of links to rdf files, right? (12:16:21 PM) catapanoth: mjgiarlo: breakouts for the overflow is a good idea (12:16:25 PM) rsinger: edsu: yeah, that's all i'm asking :) (12:16:37 PM) rsinger: edsu: and i'll help provide the starting point (12:17:08 PM) edsu: well i was thinking of using mjg, iand, mine, others foaf files as the seed (12:17:17 PM) edsu: the conference already has a URI (12:17:29 PM) edsu: so it doesn't need a "starting point" (12:17:44 PM) rsinger: ok (12:17:45 PM) ***mjgiarlo adds breakouts idea to wiki (12:17:51 PM) edsu: unless i'm missing something (12:17:54 PM) rsinger: why don't i just show up and learn something (12:18:10 PM) charper: edsu: when my office is put back together on Tue or Wed I'll send you my foaf uri. (12:18:20 PM) edsu: charper: cool (12:18:51 PM) edsu: if all the organizers could get a foaf uri before the pre-conf i think we will be in good shape (12:19:36 PM) edsu: rsinger: ahh i get it now ... sorry, i'm slow (12:19:50 PM) dbs: follow up with a code4lod conference where people worked on lod-enabling common library apps, that would be pretty cool. I think. (12:19:58 PM) edsu: rsinger: you really do want something to do :) (12:20:31 PM) edsu: dbs: i was kind of hoping that was what the afternoon was going to be (in the beginning) (12:20:40 PM) charper: code4lod++ (12:20:55 PM) edsu: dbs: "I've got this webapp, how do i make data available from it using this shit?" (12:21:12 PM) lbjay: mjgiarlo: do we want to break up the Resources section of the wiki into "Handout materials" vs. the rest (12:21:19 PM) dbs: edsu: yeah, but the PM hours will disappear very quickly (12:21:26 PM) edsu: but i think what catapanoth suggested, re doing the publishing right, will get to that (12:21:28 PM) eby_: open_shit++ (12:21:34 PM) dbs: as the call of beer grows harder to resist (12:21:38 PM) charper: dbs: by this summer, RDF will be in testing, a lot of stuff will be in Daine/Jon's registry, XC might have some of their toolkits out.... (12:21:45 PM) rsinger: edsu: yeah, i was just thinking of how to represent the preconf as lod (12:21:45 PM) charper: s/RDF/RDA (12:22:06 PM) edsu: rsinger: but i guess i stole your idea? (12:22:28 PM) dbs: charper: we'll be living in an Evergreen fairyland by then, and might be able to do more interesting things than just focusing on migration :) (12:22:38 PM) edsu: rsinger: actually i think you can go about it your way (12:22:44 PM) catapanoth: must go. thanks for all the effort put into this. the preconf will be fun, i'm sure. (12:22:47 PM) mjgiarlo: lbjay: makes sense to break it up, why not? (12:22:56 PM) mjgiarlo: lbjay: handout vs. bibliography? (12:23:03 PM) edsu: rsinger: however it is, and i can do it my way (crawling foafs), and jay can go about it his way with sem media wiki (12:23:07 PM) lbjay: mjgiarlo: right. i can do that. (12:23:11 PM) rsinger: edsu: if we split up into 'producers' and 'consumers'... why not? (12:23:38 PM) rsinger: i just think we have a small window of opportunity to prove that this shit is useful (12:23:39 PM) edsu: and maybe jay dateman can go about it his way with drupal? (12:23:44 PM) lbjay: someone remind me, did we want "Cool URIs for Sem Web" or "Cool URIs Don't Change"? (12:23:47 PM) edsu: datema (12:23:57 PM) charper: lbjay: for SemWeb (12:24:00 PM) edsu: i was thinking the former (12:24:05 PM) lbjay: righto (12:24:21 PM) edsu: rsinger: well everyone will be a producer of some kind if we can get them to do a foaf profile (12:24:21 PM) mjgiarlo: former (12:25:00 PM) rsinger: edsu: but i was thinking of something a little more heterogeneous (12:25:08 PM) edsu: rsinger: like what? (12:25:22 PM) rsinger: edsu: more than FOAF on FOAF action (12:25:36 PM) edsu: rsinger: well if people FOAF -> dbpedia, freebase (12:25:40 PM) edsu: in their interests etc (12:25:48 PM) edsu: that'll be more than foaf right? (12:25:50 PM) charper: re: bibliography, you folks see the recent W3C:TAG finding on self-describing web? (12:26:03 PM) edsu: yes, that's a good one to add i think (12:26:17 PM) charper: http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/selfDescribingDocuments.html (12:26:25 PM) rsinger: ok (12:27:08 PM) edsu: charper: i really like this doc, because it's very holistic (12:27:30 PM) charper: edsu: I know - I liked that it covered the non-RDF approaches, particularly the MicroFormats world. (12:27:49 PM) edsu: and atom (12:28:06 PM) charper: Sort of presents a path from URIs through XML, Atom, Microformats, to RDF & RDFa, GRDDL etc. (12:28:17 PM) edsu: aye (12:28:23 PM) charper: All tie together, and I like the notion of recursive self description. (12:28:45 PM) mjgiarlo: maybe we can just hand that out and go to the pub. (12:29:03 PM) charper: pub4lod? (12:29:34 PM) edsu: ties in well with fielding's Hypermedia as the Engine of Application State

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